Hi all hoping you all can help. Went to qualify today and my duty gun performance was poor. Here's is what happened, I shot my all Stainless P226 9mm( worked on by the Sig Armor) . Shooting Winchester 147 grain HPs. Struggled shooting low left. Really concentrated on second round and shot a little better. Passed but not happy. Ok then I pull out my backup , Sig 938 box stock. Same basic course of fire and ammo. Dead on , center mass hits inside hits. A couple of flyers ( bad mag caused double feed). Question , if its me , hows come I shoot the 938 great right after shooting my much heavier and worked over 226? Guys are thinking its the fact the 938 is basically a 1911 trigger and I control that type of trigger better. Even over a DA/SA worked on trigger. Just hoping for some of the experts to chime in. Thinking of selling the 226 and going to 1911 full size in 9mm. thanks as always
Officer Dave

First off, I’m guessing you are a right handed shooter. The rounds low left are common with a a right handed shooter with a pre-ignition push. That is a down ward push on the pistol that starts before the gun discharges. The is also called a flinch, anticipating the shot, etc. The fact that it didn’t show up with the 938 is not that problematic. The short trigger pull allowed the gun to go off with a whole lot less effort.

Your trigger control needs work. You need to do a lot of dry fire to fix it.

As jljones wrote: Dryfire. Lots. Some say 10 rounds of dryfire for every round of live. Watch your sight alignment throughout the trigger pull.

TDA Sigs are great for ironing out trigger control issues. If you can maintain sight alignment throughout the DA pull, SA becomes a piece of cake

Using a laser trainer helps, too.

What Jones said.

I’ll add my two cents, which (as they say) is worth what you paid for it.

Dry fire practice (assuming you’re practicing proper technique) is always good. But you may need more depending on why you’re flinching/anticipating. If it’s you see the perfect sight alignment and sight image and snatch at the trigger before the window closes, yes dry fire is what you need. Dry fire will also help if you’re trying to force through the break instead of steadily pulling through.

But if you’re anticipating the bang and concussion (flinching) or preemptively trying to fight recoil, my opinion is that dry fire only takes you so far, because it’s the effect of live fire you’re reacting to. So first, double up ear pro and make sure plugs are in properly. Next, loosen up your grip a bit and burn through a mag, maybe two, of ammo. The idea is to get yourself accustomed to the virtual explosion happening 3 feet in front of your face, and that the recoil isn’t gonna knock the gun out of your hands.

How do you know which it is? Well since you’re not doing it with the smaller pistol, which would generally jump on you more, it may be that trigger difference. Work on a heavy DA pull dry fire. Balance a coin or a spent case on the front sight to test yourself. Once you’ve got that real steady, work on the SA pull, making sure you pull smoothly through the wall.

The last thing I can say is during live fire, make a concerted effort to not look at your target until you’ve done a string of shooting. Stay focused on that front sight for at least 3 shots. You may be trying to see your results, especially during a qual, after each shot. When you’re trying to see immediate results, you can dip the pistol to look over at the target.

Best of luck to you!

Jones knows.

(And will help you fix!)

quote:

Originally posted by officerdave:
Guys are thinking its the fact the 938 is basically a 1911 trigger and I control that type of trigger better.

P938 trigger moves on a hinge, not straight back, so IMO, it's more like a P226 trigger than a 1911's. P938/238 trigger pull weights run around 7-8 lbs, which is very heavy for SA and much heavier than every 1911 I've seen or read about.

officerdave, what jljones said is great advice regarding dry fire practicing, especially in DA mode.

May I add one more thing from personal experience? All things being equal, any 1911 9mm cannot begin to approach your P226 in terms of reliability, IMHO. Since reliability is the most important thing in a duty weapon, your P226 stands at the top of the mountain. I had an STI Trojan 1911 9mm; helluva gun. Super accurate, but extractor gave up the ghost at just 600 rounds. I have an old P226 and even older P228 that have easily quadrupled that number over the years without so much as a bobble. In fact, in the 25 years I've been on the range, the P226 9mm has been one of the only, if not the only, duty handguns that I've never seen break. I'd stay P226, fix the trigger issue with DA dry fire, and sleep well. Good luck, sir.

I am far from an expert but this drill at the range may help. It should be readily apparent if you are flinching. If that is so I recommend dry fire on the target at the range you have been firing at until you can keep the front sight on target through the trigger break maybe ten times and do the drill again and repeat as needed. It has helped me on the occasion when I developed a flinch. Of course it is also important to isolate the trigger finger movement during trigger press from the rest of the fingers of your strong hand or you will pull the pistol off target just before trigger break.

I also like to dry fire at home and have found that a trainer laser cartridge helps with instant feedback and makes dry fire more fun. I use the LaserLyte but there are others. Laserlyte offer a replacement switch endcap as that will wear out over time and they state expected life is 3000 uses.

the drill is like the drill where you load some random snap caps in your mag. same principle. the flinch will show up if it's there.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
First off, I’m guessing you are a right handed shooter. The rounds low left are common with a a right handed shooter with a pre-ignition push. That is a down ward push on the pistol that starts before the gun discharges. The is also called a flinch, anticipating the shot, etc. The fact that it didn’t show up with the 938 is not that problematic. The short trigger pull allowed the gun to go off with a whole lot less effort.

Your trigger control needs work. You need to do a lot of dry fire to fix it.

^^^
Pretty much this. (That jljones fella is kinda smart!)

Im betting you are probably shooting a DAO trigger and not a DAK. (If you're CPD, You probably cam on the job Phil Cline era or before ) I think your DAO might be about 10lb pull. The DAK is a little lighter. That's a heavy, long pull you have to maintain for every shot. This needs practice to maintain that skill.

Dry fire
dry fire
dry fire

But you gotta be honest with yourself when doing it. Focus on that front sight! HOW MUCH IS THAT FRONT SIGHT MOVING?!?!? Draw a circle, about the size of a quarter on a piece of paper, and practice your dry fire at 4 feet. Then move back to 6 feet. Lather, rinse, repeat. This will also up your game when it comes to shooting your other guns.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out!

Here is a short video, by Chris Sajnog, that may help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXiZZGNOlCw

He has a number of other videos that are very informative. https://www.youtube.com/user/CenterMassGroup/videos

Had the same thing happen to me a few years ago. I'm not LE but I'll tell you what I did and it worked.
Jones is 100% right as others with dry fire practice. Get some snap caps and fire away.
But, as another member said, you need live fire. On top of that, if you can, have someone video your hands and the pistol while you're shooting. Everyone has a phone nowadays so it's not hard. Friend, wife, GF, whoever. You'll be surprised.
I was low, left also and had a friend stand next to me, non ejection side, and use his phone to video me. I could see myself pushing the pistol down. It wasn't that I was scared of recoil as I'm sure you aren't either. Just a habit that creeps in.
Best of luck to you and I'm sure you'll get this ironed out.

Thanks all Jerry you are spot on need more dry fire. My 226 is a DA/SA that has trigger work from the Sig Armor. Just wondering why the smallest handgun I own (938) I shoot the best. I will stay with the 226 and just shoot more dry and live.

Try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYzheuJE47E

I just brought a "MANTIS X". It's not easy to describe. Check out their website at www.mantisx.com

It's a gyroscope mounted to your accessory rail that connects to your smartphone via Bluetooth. When connected, every squeeze of your trigger is analyzed, graded 1-100 and it offers suggestions based upon the probable cause of scoring less than 100. Breaking, too much/little finger, etc ...

Under $160.00 on Amazon. For me, it will be a great training aid in the house, as well as a live fire training aid for the range.

I'm even thinking of looking for an old NYPD DAO P226 so I can train on the worst possible trigger @ 12 lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by officerdave:
Thanks all Jerry you are spot on need more dry fire. My 226 is a DA/SA that has trigger work from the Sig Armor. Just wondering why the smallest handgun I own (938) I shoot the best. I will stay with the 226 and just shoot more dry and live.

Stay with the P226. Opinions will vary, but I think it is the finest combat handgun ever made. Most of the heavy lifting on being fast and accurate is done in dry fire. If the gun has had a little work done to it, it should be a breeze to shoot if you aren't trying to force the gun to go off instead of allowing it to go off. Dry fire will cure it. And the demon drill (posted above by another name) is a great live fire work around without dummy rounds.

I would avoid videos that offer "one weird trick" and whatnot. I watched it and had to finally turn it off because I was afraid I was going to laugh too loud and wake up my kids. That horrid infomercial looked like it should be one of those ads on Gunbroker "Take a deep breath before you see what she looks like now". I guess people that want to be separated from their money go for that type of stuff, but the wheel hasn't been reinvented this century.

I hear some good things about dry fire systems. But, it is been my experience that they really do nothing for you that conventional dry fire does not as long as you have a plan. They wind up being one of those "Perfect Pull UP" bars that wind up sitting in the closet because it requires effort. All you have to do to dry fire is unload the pistol you have on you, and go to work. They also take your attention off of the fundamentals, off of the sights, and can do way more harm than good.

My .02

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GerryR:
Try this:

Hi Gerry, Been a long time.
You may already know, but your web site still does not work
with a MacBook Pro.
I hope all is well with you and your family.
Best Regards, Jack Major

Lots of good advice. To make it simple align your sights and center them on your target. Pull the trigger slowly over 3-5 seconds in DA. FOCUS on keeping your sight alignment and let the shot surprise you. Then follow up with a single action gently pulling the trigger slowly while maintaining proper sight alignment.

Decock and repeat. I've actually found my DA is a bullseye.

I actually enjoy DA/SA. It's more challenging. Striker triggers are easy.

The other trick is to balance a penny on your front sight and word on the DA WITH snap caps.

Just a few things that have helped me.

Probably won't help but as mentioned above to a degree.... grip and finger placement on the trigger.

I had a brain fart at my gun club one day... shot three different semi-autos and they were all shooting about 3" to the left.... I actually adjusted the rear sights on them.... then a day later realized how stupid that was....

interesting side note... the P320 I bought with the new Romeo red dot sight actually showed me what I was doing wrong... you can't really see the slight movement just before the gun fires with iron sights but the red dot shows it perfectly.

Officer Dave,
You are not alone with this issue. I practice live fire regularly (at least 3 times per month) with both my P226 (Sig trigger job) and a well worn P938. Some days I shoot lights out with my P226 and others I am not shooting worth a damn. Meanwhile, I pull the P938 from my pocket and run all 7 shots in rapid fire and put all 7 in a 3" circle at 10 yards. It was a frustrating mystery at first, but then I found that I may do different things on different days. Sometimes it is flinch other times it is trigger control or grip or trigger finger placement or looking focus on the front sight. Whatever it is that ails me that day, I work through it with dry fire and a little focus, as described in the previous posts. Anytime I struggle, I just go back to the basics and reset.