Keltec P32 with. Buffalo Bore 75 gr hardcast.
It may well need a fluff and buff to be reliable but that is about as light as you can get. A Seecamp may be a bit smaller still.

Better than the 25 or 22 IMO.

I've carried an lcp or taurus tcp 80% of the time for years. I just don't have the time to dress around a larger gun every time I carry, so I've gotten into the habit (good or bad) of just dropping it into my pocket and going on my way. There's no way to know what we may encounter. I may regret not carrying something bigger or I may not, who knows? I just make sure that I've got a gun and a knife at all times.

Just carry first...then carry enough gun.

Twenty five years of going back and forth on this subject I find weight is more important than size. I also find fit of the firearm to your hand and sights to be more important than capacity. A twenty year old example; back when we all carried 380s off duty my Walther PPk was smaller but I found my lightweight blued P230 more comfortable to carry. Also, the sights on either one of those 380s made them much more "shootable" than my model 36 S&W. Don't forget proper support equipment like a good gun belt and holster, they will make it much more comfortable to carry a decent fighting pistol.

As a young patrolman many year ago, I had to buy my own gun, which was a S&W Model 27 with a 5" barrel. I needed to carry off duty but couldn't at first afford a second gun so I carried that large revolver concealed for quite a while. There were plenty concealed holsters for big revolvers and it was not uncommon for guys to carry 6" N frames or K frames concealed. You had to dress around the gun, but it can be done. Jackets, shirt jackets, and vests were the norm.

I carried 14 different handguns of various size and design for duty in my career. It is incontrovertible that there is a tradeoff between concealability and power and accuracy. I found that the Sig P228/S&W 6906/Sig P320c, etc, sized pistol to be fairly easily concealed yet powerful and accurate enough for just about any situation. A great compromise. In fact those sized guns are often the on and off duty issue pistols of many agencies. It is interesting to read the history of the Illinois State Police selection of the S&W Model 39 in the mid 60's-They were buying a gun that worked for both on duty and concealed off duty carry.

In my beginners classes we spend a lot of time talking about gun selection and carry methods. My criteria for a carry pistol are simple. 1). It must be reliable 2). You must be able to operate it 3). It must be centerfire and 4). You must be able to hit the target with it. As long as the gun meets those criteria the size and carry methods are optional variables chosen by the shooter.

Now some thoughts on micro pistols. They have their place, I get that. I carried a Baby Browning .25 acp in a shirt pocket as a backup when on the street, my thought being it is better than a sharp stick when the chips are down. If I had no other choice, I would carry it again.

However, here are a few things to consider that we as experienced shooters might not give a second thought. I have had a number of ladies show up in my class with a Ruger LCP that was chosen for them by a well meaning husband or gun store clerk. Only to find out that they did not have the hand strength to operate the slide. That's a DQ for a carry gun for that person. I have also had people show up with an ultra lightweight .38 revolver because someone told them it was ideal for a girl. Then we go to the range and shoot a 45 round qualification course. After a few rounds of recoil the lady is ready to throw that light weight revolver on the ground. It is nice to carry but a bitch to shoot. We get a major flinch, and how much are they going to practice with a gun that punishes them like that? DQ. And then there are certain brands of pistols I won't allow on my range any more because of poor reliability. Another DQ.

All four of the criteria above should be considered when selecting any pistol, regardless of size and caliber. I don't disagree that some gun is better than no gun, but an itty bitty gun that won't work for you, or you can't hit the target with, is just a fishing weight.

quote:

Originally posted by Tusk:
While I think bigger is better (within reason) when it comes to caliber there's no doubt having any gun is better than no gun.

The Beretta 950 would be a better choice than the Baby Browning for your friend do to the poor safety of the Browning. That's not a pistol I'm comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber.

+1 on the Beretta, carried a 950 for a few years until I bought a Seecamp LWS32 (another excellent pistol to consider)

quote:

In my beginners classes we spend a lot of time talking about gun selection and carry methods. My criteria for a carry pistol are simple. 1). It must be reliable 2). You must be able to operate it 3). It must be centerfire and 4). You must be able to hit the target with it. As long as the gun meets those criteria the size and carry methods are optional variables chosen by the shooter.

Now some thoughts on micro pistols. They have their place, I get that. I carried a Baby Browning .25 acp in a shirt pocket as a backup when on the street, my thought being it is better than a sharp stick when the chips are down. If I had no other choice, I would carry it again.

However, here are a few things to consider that we as experienced shooters might not give a second thought. I have had a number of ladies show up in my class with a Ruger LCP that was chosen for them by a well meaning husband or gun store clerk. Only to find out that they did not have the hand strength to operate the slide. That's a DQ for a carry gun for that person. I have also had people show up with an ultra lightweight .38 revolver because someone told them it was ideal for a girl. Then we go to the range and shoot a 45 round qualification course. After a few rounds of recoil the lady is ready to throw that light weight revolver on the ground. It is nice to carry but a bitch to shoot. We get a major flinch, and how much are they going to practice with a gun that punishes them like that? DQ. And then there are certain brands of pistols I won't allow on my range any more because of poor reliability. Another DQ.

All four of the criteria above should be considered when selecting any pistol, regardless of size and caliber. I don't disagree that some gun is better than no gun, but an itty bitty gun that won't work for you, or you can't hit the target with, is just a fishing weight.

excellent post (As well as the OP)

working in the firearms business, I hear a lot of guys recommend or buy something for the wife or girlfriend, with out them there,,

I always recommend to buy what the wife/girlfriend likes, regardless of what the boyfriend/husband likes, and if possible, go to a local range and rent a few to see what she can handle, recoil wise, or what fits her best,

most don't take that advice and I would bet most have a gun sitting in a cabinet or drawer and not carried,


FWIW, my wife does not carry, but does have a firearm or 10 handy in the house,

she is petite, 5'4" and about 115,
she shoots best with my Browning Hi Power, and the S&W36 I gave her that was my grandmothers,,

The OP is spot on from a gear sense. The thing that is really missing is training. Lots of people carry mouse guns and are really poorly trained. Lots of people carry full sized guns and 20 magazines and are poorly trained.

"First rule is to have a gun" isn't going to make or break anyone. It is what they can do with that gun, mouse gun or not, when it counts.

I think we focus, and obsess, on the gear thing a bit too much. Yeah, I've seen lots of untrained people kill each other with a pool cue. That doesn't mean I want to use it for my defense because of the empirical evidence of the number of people killed by pool sticks.

I personally have a few standards I have to be able to clean when I'm at my worst. If I can't clean the standard with this or that gun, it doesn't get carried.

People can choose to carry or not carry. If you choose to carry, you can dress around the gun you want or choose the gun to fit your dress.

I had a beautiful well endowed petite young woman come into the LGS looking for her first ever gun. She had just received her concealed handgun license. She had on stiletto high-heel shoes, skin-tight designer jeans, and a very revealing tank top. She ended up choosing the smallest NAA .22 mini-revolver because she would not change the way she dressed.

I wear loose fitting jeans and an untucked shirt. I conceal carry my 6" Glock G40 MOS 10mm and two spare magazines on my belt.

Very good questions from OP. However, questions with no real answers.

Everybody who carries has their own psychological comfort level. It's their own comfort level and can't really be argued with. It can be discussed and adopted by or ignored by others. In other words, well worth discussing, but no real answer to the questions.

I'm a civilian and have carried for 53 years. My selections have changed over the decades. Some of it based on reality, some based on my own subjective comfort level (at the time). Here's some ancient history:

1) 1960's and 1970's. Revolvers were my primary carry. Smallest I ever carried were S&W M36 3" .38 Spl. Usually it was a M19 4". Ammo was either hand loaded 158 gr SWC or Super-Vel (when available & $$$). Late 1960's (urban riots) I had a S&W M39. Great gun, but eventually sold it. Wasn't thrilled with 9mm ball ammo (all that was available). BUGS were either a Bauer .25 ACP or AMT .380.

2) Sometime in the 1970's I switched to 1911's. Had to use ball. Upticks in multiple assailant attacks, compared to the old M.O.: one dude with a zip gun. Plus, I probably saw too may "Death Wish" sequels. BUG was usually a S&W M60 2" in ankle holster, later went with a Seecamp .25.

3) Stayed with 1911's through the mid nineties. Reliable JHP came around over the decades, giving me a higher confidence level than ball. Ended up with four 1911's since buying the first one in 1972. Still love them. BUG for most of that time was a Seecamp .25.

4) Switched to a Sig P229 .40 for carry in 1995. Can't recall if I was influenced by the U.S. government agencies using it or just liked the gun. Besides carrying, I put around 47,00 rounds through it over 20 years. Continued to use 1911's at range as well. Still runs like a champ. BUG changed from a Seecamp .25 to a Seecamp .32 ACP.

5) Nowadays I change carry guns depending on season and mood. If I change from one gun to another, I'll always make sure I have recently done range time with it. BUG is either the Seecamp .32 or M60 2".

6) Since I'm retired now, I have the luxury of dressing like a slob. Concealment isn't an issue. My preference is larger guns. Primary can be a Cmdr size 1911, P229, P239 or G19. Regardless of gun selected, I always dress the same: Primary and two spare mags on belt, folding knife, kubotan, BUG and one spare mag or Speed Strip.

7) My holster preferences are nearly all Milt Sparks. I started with Sparks in the early 1970's and stuck with them. Comfortable, secure and fast. Whenever I buy a new gun I also buy a Sparks IWB and OWB, which gives me flexibility. One thing I always liked was that the IWB and OWB holsters all have the same draw angle and feel. I'm 5' 7". FWIW, I have comfortably carried my P226 and G34 in Sparks VM-2 IWB holsters.

I like larger guns that I can hit with. Just my comfort level. No criticism of folks that either like or have to carry something smaller. While not the "best", nobody likes picking .25 ACP bullets out of their face. I've always dressed around my guns. I've never considered any gun I've carried to have magical properties. Handgun stopping reliability/predictability is nearly non-existent. So what? We carry handguns since we can't reasonably carry rifles or shotguns around all day.

My own training revolves around the fact that I don't expect the opening volley to STOP the assailant. If it actually does, it's gravy. I like movement, cover, distraction and surprise. The words "fair" and "fight" don't go together. Long before I saw Jones' Signature line ("Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight") I carried that logic in my training and mindset. If you haven't yet, think about those words. The concept is more important than your choice of gun or ammo.

Like everybody, I have preferences in equipment, but that's all they are...preferences. If a gunfight was imminent and you tossed me a police surplus S&W M10 4" with FBI loads, I'd be happy.

I know of more than a few petite women between the ages of 24 and 74, that go through life,
neither safe , situationally aware.

if they had a gun to carry , it would be an accident if they happened to actually shoot an aggressor.

I have wrestled with this for a long time, and while a bigger caliber would always be a better choice, a reliable shootable 380 or 32 is indeed better than no gun by a large margin. Right now I am carrying a glock 42 in the pocket. I am a huge fan of pocket carry for lots of reasons, and most people ( tight skinny jeans people excepted) can effectively pocket carry. Right now I am considering moving to a sig 938 which if the ruler is correct is the same size as my glock 42.
But admit at times I slip a .22 or .25 in my pocket for runs to the mail box or walking the dog.

Yes, any gun is better than no gun. But I think that too small a gun has the effect of giving the carrier a false sense of security.

I'm going to turn this thread on it's ear a bit. Given that the young lady in question is a uniformed LEO, and, even off duty, may have to deal with actively dangerous situations to a higher degree than a civilian CCW, I would think that she should be carrying significantly more gun than a bare minimum mouse gun. And, given what we know about carry methods, does anyone doubt that if she tried, she could come up with on body carry methods that would allow her to carry the shield (or some other single stack 9mm that might be slightly smaller), 90% of the time? And, yes, this might mean dressing around the gun in certain circumstances.

I often carry my Kahr P380 (am right now actually). I will on rare occasions carry an NAA .22 mag if i really have to conceal deep.

While those guns are not my preferred gun to defend my life with, I feel better about using them than punching someone.

I'll carry bigger when I can, but I honestly don't see myself running for cover, firing on the move, changing mags...you know all the stuff we do in our club matches if I ever need to defend myself with a gun.

It will likely be bad breathe distance and I'm ok (not elated, but ok) with a 380 at that range.

If i find myself having to engage an active shooter with a NAA Sidewinder, it's gonna be a really crappy day, but I'm gonna give it my all. It's all odds really. "what are the odds?" That's what we ask ourselves when we toss a mouse gun in our pocket.

Many factors come into play when we answer that question, but I've made my peace with the choice to carry a mouse gun a large percentage of the time (read work).

As a longtime self defense shooting instructor, I have no hesitation in recommending the Beretta 21A in 22lr.

It nicely offers a light weight safe handling DA/SA operation. The tilt barrel offers easy chamber loading for those with limited arm strength to rack the slide.

With the safety engaged it can be carried in ready to engage single action mode.

What is not to like if you cannot carry a bigger gun with a larger caliber for whatever reason?

These two have been on me constantly since I retired in April. The Sig P250 .40 S&W now wears a FDE grip module and I bought a spare mag for the Seecamp .32. Just under $800.00 for the pair.

My wife started with a Taurus PT 22 with a tip up barrel because she couldn't run the slide on any of the blow back guns and most larger guns were just too big for her.

She swapped to a P3AT years ago. Fluff and buff and learning hos to have a solid grip platform made it reliable. She carries it all the time. Until she got a leather pocket holster from BRL, she would get a print of her gun kinda like a Skoal ring on her right front pockets of her jeans. She carries that little sucker from the moment she gets dressed until she gets undressed for the night. If she is wearing girlie clothes, she switches to either a belly band or a Pistolwear holster. She prefers the pistolwear. She can own any gun available if she wants, she likes her little KelTec.

I EDC a P239 in a VMII. When I can't easily conceal it but need to not open carry, I swap to my own P3AT. Same BRL holster without the elephant trim my wife has. Perfect gun that hides easily in a pants pocket.

I'm in the First Rule camp. Any gun is better than no gun.

Hopefully this incident will serve as a wake up call for her and she'll never allow herself to get in that situation again.

quote:

Originally posted by Tusk:
The Beretta 950 would be a better choice than the Baby Browning for your friend do to the poor safety of the Browning. That's not a pistol I'm comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber.

Not to mention the fact that the Beretta is much, much easier to shoot accurately. The Baby is just too small. It's very difficult to maintain a good grip while pulling the trigger -- unless, or course, you have very tiny hands.

That said, there's a great scene in the Danish movie Flame & Citron where a resistance fighter escapes from Nazi custody with the help of the Baby Browning he has in his boot. Deep concealment ...

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
Keltec P32 with. Buffalo Bore 75 gr hardcast.
It may well need a fluff and buff to be reliable but that is about as light as you can get. A Seecamp may be a bit smaller still.

The Seecamp is shorter in both height and length, but is about three ounces heavier: 10.2 for the Kel-Tec, 13.2 for the Seecamp.