Like many I took an interest in the RMR or RedDot sights for pistols, there are several advantages listed, and lots of us are getting them or at least buying MOS ready pistols in anticipation of buying an optic.

Currently own two MOS ready Glocks, 34 and 40, and a Vortex Venom optic. BTW this really isn't intended to be about optic selection or manufacturer options.

My guess is that many buy the optic thinking it's a panacea for poor or average shooting skills and that it will instantly improve your shot placement. I can attest to the fact that it's not the magic bullet that will instantly improve your ability, slapping one on and zeroing the dot won't make it hit the target by itself.

In fact you may find the opposite, that you can't hit the target (guilty) for jack shidt, have you questioning your decision to drop a grand on a new MOS and RMR.

And you don't have to be an average joe shooter to have difficulty with the transition from Iron to RMR at least from the research I've done, several competition shooters would try them and find it difficult to get shots on target.

My experiences are similar, can't find the dot, the dots too high right/left, off the screen, shot placement isn't where I see the dot. Shots are worse than when I run Irons. Yes I'm just average, couple times a month or weekly range shooter. Never really pushed hard on fundamentals.

So the quest began on utoob for the solution, was I lining up the dot correct with actual POI (there are many different solutions) how to aim properly, again video after video. Until I ran upon this video from Sage Dynamics with Aaron Cowan, Developing Point of Aim with a RDS handgun optic.

JMO Aaron does a good job of explaining the difficulty and solutions for interfacing yourself with an RMR. He goes through it in detail, which helps understand the dynamics of the transition to optics. Its 27 minutes long, however there are some good points to take away.

So if your basic fundamentals are off, the RMR is going to exaggerate them not cure them, and that may be why some people try them and give up. Like a lot of folks putting in time, effort, money are necessary to succeed, some folks just want a magic dot.

So having put about 200 rounds somewhere downrange with the 34 it was apparent that I needed help, and frustration setting in it was time for some research.

Hopefully this helps some with the RMR transition, I've away to go to get better, however at least now have an idea on how to proceed.





Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh9MC7O_CtA

Next video to learn from will be on correcting the grip and trigger work to overcome my faults as well as the learned muscle memory from shooting Irons.

It appears it's that much different, focal points, hand position, grip, head position, and maybe that's why RMR's are going to be the future because it forces you to correct your problems or you can't hit shit... at least I can't....for now

I bought a G19MOS last year and have been learning to shoot it. Absolutely no doubt about the precision. Makes longer shots and smaller targets much easier, BUT I'm not nearly as fast on my first shot. As you said, finding the dot is somewhat more challenging than lining up iron sights. One thing it showed me is that the natural point of aim for a Glock really is high. That's despite shooting iron sighted Glocks for the last 20 years.

The biggest piece of advice I can give you is the draw stroke is the number one most important thing that will give you a quick dot on target. You need to come almost straight up out of the holster and get the sights up to eye level before you start your extension to the target. Anything less and you'll be trying to find the dot while you're trying to square up on the target. Dry training is your friend on this. Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.

Dry fire.

Dry fire.

Dry fire.

And then do some more dry fire.

I have loaned my RMR guns to literally dozens of people to try at steel matches. I have never seen anyone who wasn't more accurate with it. sometime dramatically. Slower for sure, but never worse for accuracy. Granted these are in general experienced shooters.
I've now shot tens of thousands of rounds with an RMR equipped gun and I'm still slower than irons on short big targets (think smoke and hope in SC), but I am more accurate and faster at any range beyond 10y. Draw stroke is the key to being fast on finding the dot.

One thing that you will likely come to find is that working with the dot will make you a much better iron sights shooter. Because the eye-box, for lack of a better turn, for the red dot is relatively small, your presentations will necessarily become more and more precise with practice. Where you can "cheat" your way to properly aligned iron sights, it is much harder to do with the red dot. You will initially present the gun and see nothing and have to search for the dot a lot, but that will get better, and that will be because your draw will become much more precise.

I have a Leupold Deltapoint on my 34 MOS. Initially I did not think I would like using a dot but since shooting with it for a few weeks I’m very happy with it. I’m beginning to get faster on presentation but not nearly as fast on first shots using irons. I think it just requires a lot of presentations from the holster and dry firing time.

Do grip angles on some pistols make aquiring the dot easier than on others when first getting into
using red dot sights on pistols? The new Aimpoint ACRO RD pistol sight is being touted as being extremely bombproof. Why then would you want any steel backup sights to clutter the already small
dot window? I would also think that if one commits to a pistol RDS on your defensive pistol, they should really be on *all* your defensive carry pistols, so as not to possibly introduce confusion into the mix. I think a RDS that self regulates the dot intensity for different lighting conditions would also be highly desirable.

quote:

Originally posted by dgrdvm:
Dry fire.

Dry fire.

Dry fire.

And then do some more dry fire.

Indeed. I do a lot of dry fire at home, mostly with iron sights, but some with my red dot sight. It’s much easier to detect a twitch when the trigger breaks with a red dot, so that helps you correct any deficiencies in your trigger pull. Actually, I use my red dot only for dry fire – never for live fire.

Im very interested in this as well.


Are there any pros and cons to buying a Glock MOS or having a slide milled for the RMR? I see one of these in my near future. I will be purchasing a glock 17 for this project one way or the other. It seems more cost effective to purchase the MOS.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh9MC7O_CtA

Excellent video; thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I have loaned my RMR guns to literally dozens of people to try at steel matches. I have never seen anyone who wasn't more accurate with it. sometime dramatically. Slower for sure, but never worse for accuracy. Granted these are in general experienced shooters.
I've now shot tens of thousands of rounds with an RMR equipped gun and I'm still slower than irons on short big targets (think smoke and hope in SC), but I am more accurate and faster at any range beyond 10y. Draw stroke is the key to being fast on finding the dot.

This is part of what Aaron is saying, that the RMR isn't going to solve your problem if its fundamental, grip etc. If you have bad basics or a flaw that's going to show up with the RMR, it's not going to fix bad grips.

Reading up on it there appears to be a good number of folks that try it to see if it will correct their problem and it doesn't so they give up.

Those that already have very good fundamentals are going to find the learning curve is faster, however there is a learning curve no matter what as you saw with folks that shoot in competitions.

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:
Im very interested in this as well.


Are there any pros and cons to buying a Glock MOS or having a slide milled for the RMR? I see one of these in my near future. I will be purchasing a glock 17 for this project one way or the other. It seems more cost effective to purchase the MOS.

My conclusion was that buying a non milled slide, mailing it off, waiting, getting it back and being locked into a specific RMR wasn't the way to go.

Buying a factory Glock MOS provides you instant access to the pistol with the RMR you want, and if the one you buy (RMR) isn't to your liking you can sell the RMR and try another due to the plate system on the MOS Glocks.

Same arguments for and against red dots as were being discussed 15 years ago with rifles. I've been around long enough to have heard them

Red dots are the future. They remove a variable from shooting and make it easier. Some shooters will adopt them quicker. Others slower. Some never. I'm looking at your carry handle shooters.

RMRs are the first optics durable enough to replace iron sights. We still will use backup iron sides for decades just like we do for our carbines. Other optics will surely follow offering more durability and battery life.

But having used by MOS Glock for a few weeks it's nothing short of awesome.

quote:

I think a RDS that self regulates the dot intensity for different lighting conditions would also be highly desirable

Maybe if someone would perfect it. But at the moment they suck. Think you are in light and the target is in the dark. or you have a light on the pistol, etc. etc. I've shot lots of different circumstances and its best if you get to pick the dot intensity.

quote:

Are there any pros and cons to buying a Glock MOS or having a slide milled for the RMR?

disadvantage is one more piece in the mounting puzzle and it puts the dot higher. advantage is that having a plate gives you the option to pick a different optic.
The first doesn't bother me and the second is an advantage. But milling lets you do things that the mfg doesn't like put an RMR on your 320 or HK or 1911 etc. I've now put an RMR on just about everything.
But that's changing, I saw a factory RMR Kimber in the latest Cabellas ad.

quote:

Originally posted by Biggy:
Do grip angles on some pistols make aquiring the dot easier than on others when first getting into
using red dot sights on pistols?

No. I had to start the dot thing with a Glock after years with iron sights on CZ, and then got the CZ optic-enabled and went back. The grip angle doesn't matter, ability to have the gun point, irons or dot, at where you're looking does, and it is grip angle independent. Simply a matter of habituation.

I'm still slower off the draw to first round. Than I am with Irons. This is all me. Need more practice. But I can shoot a freaking smiley face with my X-Carry all day long.

I ended up selling my 320 RX Compact. I found myself lining up the irons, then using the dot. Way slower but great accuracy.
Old habits die hard.

That's strange because I was going to suggest the above.... I also have a 320 Compact with the Romeo red dot on it and I finally figured the fastest way to acquire the target is to just use the iron sights and then fine tune with the dot. And I think I can do it pretty fast. For anyone who is familiar with Front Sight's 4 day defensive handgun course I used this pistol on their final shooting test and shot a perfect score.... you are timed drawing from concealed .... 25 total shots. Every thing from two at 9ft in 1.8 seconds to two at 45ft in 2.9 seconds both of those to a smaller center mass area.... then head shots... hardest are 2 at 21ft in 2.3 seconds and the 'head shot' is an ocular cavity of 3"x4".

It has been my experience, in the year that I have been learning to shoot the X5/Romeo1 system, that the key for me is to index the grip correctly. If I make sure my right middle finger hits the point where the grip and the trigger guard meet, and is in there deep, when the gun comes up, the dot is right there in my field of vision. I also had to adjust to shooting both eye wide open, rather than the squint I use with irons. If I try and blaze a draw too carelessly and miss the grip then the dot is off (usually it’s high for me) and I search. I have to dry fire practice the draw stroke a bunch but the times to first hit are pretty much right where they where b4 the dot, with in a few tens.

Remember you draw once a string, but transition a lot in a course of fire, and I am more accurate and transition more efficiently with the dot. I will give up a 1/10 or 3 on the draw now, as I make up the time through the stage. And the dry fire is bringing the draw time down.

Stick with it and practice with a focus, or take some training. It will come. And old eyes are not going to magically get younger, so it helps you stay in the game longer.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dgrdvm,