quote:

Without getting to far in the weeds, there are applications where other trigger types are more suitable.

I wasn’t saying “why don’t ALL guns use a 1911 esque trigger?” I was asking why more didn’t.

As to the crappy trigger comment my point was, and I am sure they are out there, but I personally have never shot a 1911 trigger that was BAD. I have shot a wide range of good from exceptional to just plain pretty good but never a bad one. The Browning HP conversely I have shot some with really nice triggers and some with horrendous triggers.

Again this was never a All GUNS SHOULD HAVE A 1911 trigger train of thought. It was more a, the 1911’s primary competitive advantage in the modern era is its trigger and I am surprised that over the past hundred years or so it hasn’t been more copied/adapted.

Thank you, I needed that measure of levity. I laughed too hard when I read that line

quote:

VP70 doesn't count. We don't speak of the trigger you pull on Monday and fire on Wednesday.

Take care, shoot safe,
Chris

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Ok Hyperbole aside I have found the vast majority of shooters find the 1911 trigger to be very good and easy to shoot even if they don’t prefer the 1911 platform.

The “vast majority of shooters” over value their level of trigger control.

The 1911 is my LAST choice in trigger systems. I’ll go as far as saying they suck for anything I’m interested in. Not even close to “perfect”.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Ok Hyperbole aside I have found the vast majority of shooters find the 1911 trigger to be very good and easy to shoot even if they don’t prefer the 1911 platform.

The “vast majority of shooters” over value their level of trigger control.

The 1911 is my LAST choice in trigger systems. I’ll go as far as saying they suck for anything I’m interested in. Not even close to “perfect”.

Yes they are not for everyone. Care to elaborate on your opinion?

quote:

Originally posted by David Lee:
Yes they are not for everyone. Care to elaborate on your opinion?

1911 triggers tend to be on/off switches. There is no texture. You hit the pre-travel, break through the wall, and the gun discharges. It encourages and rewards very, very coarse trigger control. Now, take a 5th Gen Glock trigger. A shooter with a fine style of trigger control can prep into up to 4.5 pounds shot to shot. You can slap it at closer distances, and you can slow the roll prep for precise shots at distance. A shooter with great trigger control can exhibit a high level of control with a Glock (or similar) trigger. I’ve been on the range at work for the last five weeks teaching pistol. I’ve managed a first round hit at 125 yards on a steel chest plate, and a 200 yard first round hit on a similar sized target. The 1911 is on or off. Hard to control for precise shots, especially at distance.

1911 shooters generally struggle with accuracy at distance.

Thank you. I tend to understand you. The 1911 and its mechanics have played their role for military use, defense as a personal weapon and in competitions. Still one of the most used pistols. Not all 1911 triggers are the same. If you've shot any which Bruce has built or tuned you know what I mean. As for my slow old target shooting, I've gotten fine accuracy out of fairly basic 1911s with a quality trigger. A competant shooter shamed me with my own GI Colt. I just couldn't break the damn shot well. My target guns were a different animal. I have been on the line with guys 80 plus years of age who shoot the X out with a basic but well tuned 1911. One handed jl. A different dicipline for sure.

Bullseye shooters are a dying breed, very sadly.

Well Hudson utilized a straight pull variant in the H9. Too bad the entire design of that gun wasn't developed well enough to give it a chance to survive. As for me, I don't see a straight pull being that much better than a well-done pivot design. Even though I've been shooting 1911s somewhat regularly for about a decade now, I still prefer a pivoting trigger, and I tend to group more accurately with pivots as well. I will admit that it took me a while to adjust to the 1911 action after decades of pivot triggers (adjusting to a non-Glock grip angle at the same time didn't help); let's just say that my then existing muscle memory made for some really gawky trigger control with my first 1911. It was definitely not like a fish taking to water, although I would say that most of the guys who handled and/or shot that particular SA Loaded commented that it had a "good" trigger. Oh well.

However if someone could miraculously make a 1911ish straight pull trigger for a bullpup like my AUG, now that would be something I would take in a heartbeat. Even a so-deemed 'crappy' 1911 trigger is better than what's in that gun.

-MG

quote:

1911 shooters generally struggle with accuracy at distance.

Fair enough observations. What I find odd about me personally is I struggle with distance shooting with most semi autos, however give me a revolver and I can be fairly accurate out to 50-80 yards, DA. This isn’t something I grew up with, nor am I predominantly a revolver shooter so it must be something mechanical with no slide to move and a fixed barrel masking my normal lack of skill. By revolver I don’t me J-Frame. Typical medium/large frame guns are what I am talking about.

Once again all this wasn’t me saying ALL GUNS SHOULD HAVE INSANELY LIGHT 1911 TRIGGERS AND A SAFETY. It was just more of an observation as to why that feature never became more prevalent.

I myself am far more at home with a DA trigger and for me personally 1911s are strictly toys and kinetic pieces of art not go to weapons in the 21st century.

Trust me my magical world is not filled with nothing but 1911s and their triggers.

All that said, I do believe JJones spoke the most lovingly about a Glock trigger as I have ever heard.

Note that true SAO triggers are a vast minority of guns currently sold. Most have some claim to being DAO or DA/SA. I'm fudging the SAO an DAO thing because while a lot of striker systems claim to be DAO and therefore safe for carry, on a functional basis, mainly defined by trigger pull weight, they're really not.

What makes the 1911 trigger someone unique is that it's straight pull and explicitly SAO. So it really can be as light as the shooter wants it (if he has a good gunsmith.) Shooters love light crisp triggers, but in a lot of situations light triggers are a safety issue.

What might be interesting would be a striker gun with a straight pull trigger. Something with a semicocked (Glock-ish) striker system, with straight pull trigger at 5.5 lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by jbcummings:
Maybe better stated is why a single action is easier to shoot than a double action?
All of my SIG da/sa pistols shoot better once they’re in single action mode.
All of my 1911s (SAO) shoot better than my SIG pistols in DA mode.
Mechanics of the design.

Yea but if the hammer was up on a 1911 it won't even fire so not a good comparison to compare SIG DA to 1911 SA? How about SIG SAO to SAO instead or SIG SA vs SAO

A more realistic comparison would be pulling a SIG classic from a holster and firing the first shot DA and a total of 5 in a string of shots..(the other 4 shots would be SA)

Now compare that to the time it takes to pull a 1911 from your holster, take the safety off and/or cock the hammer and fire on the target and see how the grouping was. Heck force the 1911 to use "army rules" no cocking instead of ideal range situations.

Now if both SIG Classic (say my German P228) vs my Colt Officer's MK IV are both in SA mode, at that point they both have great triggers.

Honestly I prefer a long DA trigger to SAO for carrying and most of what I ever bought was also meant to be carried.

(I have a nice holster for my Colt Officers it had been a CCW weapon out with me 15+ years ago)

This thread's inherent problem is sample size for everyone in this thread is literally too small and what we all say is anecdotal at best.

This is known as the hasty generalization and/or fallacy of insufficient statistics/small sample size

Example:
"Well me and the group of people in my life I've met think this way so it must be that way for everyone"

Notes:
I also prefer my H&K USP compact .45 to my colt officers, the H&K which was converted to 3.5 lb LEM with a safety by H&K. For me it's my "improved 1911". It was a CCW for me a long time ago too.

I also prefer my Glock 32 which I had converted to 3.5 lb trigger as well and with a hipclip I carried that gun for seriously over 10 years as my EDC. Honestly as far as trigger, accuracy, rate of fire, and capacity it completely outdoes my .45s.

Again though everyone's experience's are valuable and don't have to align with mine.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
1911 triggers tend to be on/off switches. There is no texture. You hit the pre-travel, break through the wall, and the gun discharges. It encourages and rewards very, very coarse trigger control. Now, take a 5th Gen Glock trigger. A shooter with a fine style of trigger control can prep into up to 4.5 pounds shot to shot. You can slap it at closer distances, and you can slow the roll prep for precise shots at distance. A shooter with great trigger control can exhibit a high level of control with a Glock (or similar) trigger. I’ve been on the range at work for the last five weeks teaching pistol. I’ve managed a first round hit at 125 yards on a steel chest plate, and a 200 yard first round hit on a similar sized target. The 1911 is on or off. Hard to control for precise shots, especially at distance.

1911 shooters generally struggle with accuracy at distance.

While I agree with most of what you've written, have you fired a 1911 with a good roll trigger? I struggled with the glass rod trigger break at the 50 yard line until I discovered the ease of the roll trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by longjohn:
The Smith and Wesson model 945 .45 was the answer to making the modern day "1911" which in my opinion means it retained the best feature- the single action trigger but after that it was all pure genius. Linkless barrel, integral titanium barrel bushing, external extractor, cocked locked system and single stack mag. It represented the pinnacle of the Smith semi auto era.
It came in full size 5" , a 4" commander size and even a 3" subcompact ( i just saw a sub compact on gunbroker) , stainless, black, steel and aluminum frame. I had probably 5 of them at one time or another in different sizes. These pistols were 100% reliable, very accurate and great looking.
Sadly they are dinosaurs now, having been relegated to the historical Golden Era of the Smith gen 3 pistols. It's all M&P now.
Does anyone else remember these ??

Yes, had one. It was extremely accurate.

If I could easily graft a tuned 1911 onto other things I'd put them in nearly everything.

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I’ve managed a first round hit at 125 yards on a steel chest plate, and a 200 yard first round hit

Damn.

quote:

1911 shooters generally struggle with accuracy at distance.

A lot of 1911 shooters believe their own propaganda. Just because you have a nice 1911 with a good trigger doesn't make you a good shot.

quote:

Originally posted by longjohn:
The Smith and Wesson model 945 .45 was the answer to making the modern day "1911" which in my opinion means it retained the best feature- the single action trigger but after that it was all pure genius. Linkless barrel, integral titanium barrel bushing, external extractor, cocked locked system and single stack mag. It represented the pinnacle of the Smith semi auto era.
It came in full size 5" , a 4" commander size and even a 3" subcompact ( i just saw a sub compact on gunbroker) , stainless, black, steel and aluminum frame. I had probably 5 of them at one time or another in different sizes. These pistols were 100% reliable, very accurate and great looking.
Sadly they are dinosaurs now, having been relegated to the historical Golden Era of the Smith gen 3 pistols. It's all M&P now.
Does anyone else remember these ??

Yeah me.

I had at least one of each kind at one time or another.
They came in 3 1/4", 3 3/4", 4" all steel, and the 5"
All were absolutely wonderful.

Bob

The 1911 trigger is excellent but not as good as a single action revolvers.

Well, in fairness revolvers were never intended to be carried cocked.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Bullseye shooters are a dying breed, very sadly.

Yes. Sad.

There is little Zen in many other disciplines of handgun shooting.

There is a parallel. Smallbore competitons, 3P and prone.
And the concept of shooting on heartbeats.
Scoffers will never know what they don't know that they don't know.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RichardC,