I was conversing with an ex-Special Forces guy last evening, and the subject of the P320's supposed "woes" came up. What I'm wondering is if the AD/ND issue is related to the trigger action with this platform.

The 320 has a fully-cocked striker, if I understand correctly. The trigger pull does not complete cocking of the striker, as it would in a half-cocked striker design such as a Glock. The 320's trigger is just a trigger, and only releases a fully tensioned striker. Which means the trigger action is different. Very small initial takeup pressure through Stage 1, then you hit a small "wall" before the trigger breaks. And a very short overall travel distance as well. I.e. very easy to pull.

If you compare the trigger on a Glock, completely different. There's increasing tension through a longer trigger pull as the striker completes cocking, making it less prone (though not impossible) to accidental pulls.

I'm thinking that is why supposed ADs are happening with the Sig. It's just easier for an errant piece of clothing or finger to activate the firing cycle, especially with an uncareful holstering. And as others have mentioned, it would be career-detrimental for a LEO to admit mishandling of their duty weapon.

If any of this has validity, I'm thinking that all versions of this pistol (civilian and military) should have a manual safety. I don't know why only the M17/M18 does.

Full disclosure, I've never actually handled a 320, just wondering what others think.

It's also not the only gun with a fully cocked striker. The Walther PPQ and clones (except for the P99 wonky DA/SA striker) also have fully cocked strikers. While a trigger safety might help, it's also likely that the same errant object that could pull the P320 trigger could also defeat the trigger safety on the Walthers and H&K VP9 (what happened to that gun?).

The 320 and the 365 are available with an optional manual safety. I got it with my P365 XL and my only 320 is an M17.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
It's also not the only gun with a fully cocked striker. The Walther PPQ and clones (except for the P99 wonky DA/SA striker) also have fully cocked strikers. While a trigger safety might help, it's also likely that the same errant object that could pull the P320 trigger could also defeat the trigger safety on the Walthers and H&K VP9 (what happened to that gun?).

Same with the Springfield XD's striker, which is also fully cocked.

I know other guns have fully-cocked strikers, but they usually have a tabbed trigger safety as well, making inadvertant trigger guard incursions less likely (though not impossible) to cause an AD.

It's also about the trigger pull action profile, i.e. how much pull force, when it happens, and how long it happens. Maybe the P320 has the odd "perfect storm" profile that makes it somehow more susceptible that the others.

The P365 is fully cocked, and doesn't have a tabbed trigger, and yet we don't see the same rumors and complaints. Because there hasn't been the same level of media coverage about it's so-called problem for people to latch onto when they're looking to deflect blame.

^How long is the initial takeup on a 365, compared with the 320 or a Glock? And do we know the problem doesn't also exist with the 365, but is a lower profile weapon that isn't commissioned the official military sidearm? Are as many LEOs issued the 365?

Also, some 365s do have manual safeties, further cutting down on population size and the likelihood of mishaps.

I'm wondering if part of the problem is more of a numbers game. The 320 is only slightly more susceptible than others, but there's many more out there, and after all there's only been a small handful of AD cases, though high profile.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kkina,

Maybe another way to illustrate this...would anyone advocate carrying around a DA/SA pistol in single action mode? I doubt anyone would approve of this; it would be an accident waiting to happen. Is the 320 action really much different in practice?

I may acquire a P320 some day, but would want to feel confident in its safety obviously. Maybe this video sheds some light.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
I doubt anyone would approve of this; it would be an accident waiting to happen. Is the 320 action really much different in practice?

And yet—how many times do we hear of people having unintentional discharges with the P320?* One would think it was a common occurrence and by the process of natural selection alone the gun would already be on the trash heap of history.

* No, not the unproved myth (thus far) of their going off by themselves without human or other life form intervention; i.e., I refer to people having UDs due to their unsafe triggers.

But to address your question about the differences among various guns, you evidently believe that the P320 trigger is less safe than the Glock trigger because of the effort and distance it must be pulled to fire the gun. By that reasoning, there is a similar difference between the P320 and typical cocked Classic line SIGs: it requires more movement and pressure on the trigger to fire the P320 than something like, for example, a cocked P226. I would therefore submit that the P320 is just as safe in comparison with the cocked DA/SA gun as the Glock is in comparison with a P320.

But like so many things, if we’re afraid of it or otherwise don’t like the gun and its characteristics, there is an obvious solution: Don’t have one.

quote:

I would therefore submit that the P320 is just as safe in comparison with the cocked DA/SA gun as the Glock is in comparison with a P320.

Well, I think I would agree for the most part, Sigfreund. But that still means the order of safety goes Glock, P320, and finally cocked DA/SA. And perhaps it's not the same difference; the 320 might be closer to DA/SA, still creating a failure mode with a fair degree of probability.

Edited to add: forgot to mention one important detail- nobody (I hope) goes around carrying or holstering a DA/SA pistol in SA mode (unless perhaps it has a manual safety, of course).

quote:

But like so many things, if we’re afraid of it or otherwise don’t like the gun and its characteristics, there is an obvious solution: Don’t have one.

Well, in this case, there's a third alt: get (or put) a 320 with a manual safety. Problem solved.

(I'm certainly not trying to bash the 320. In fact I can see myself getting one some day.)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kkina,

As Jeff Cooper used to say, “The proof of the pudding is in the eating,” or actual experience trumps any theory.

To reiterate, if the P320’s trigger made it unsafe to carry and employ, experience should have demonstrated that very clearly by now regardless of where the trigger might lie on a theoretical safeness continuum.

Anyway: Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

I would argue that experience is showing us a need to consider where the 320 trigger lies on the safety continuum. Not as good as a Glock, and not quite safe enough or LEOs wouldn't be filing lawsuits, albeit a very small percentage.

Maybe the ADs are a result of mishandling whilst holstering, but on a gun that is prone to accidental trigger pull in the first place. It explains everthing. But fortunately, simple to fix.

OK, weird thing to be discussing on Christmas Eve, but always a pleasure. Merry Christmas, all.

And how many problems did Glock have with the same issue when they were mass adopted? Don't forget the Glock 22 and 23 had problems blowing up back in their early days. Then later on either the Gen 3 or Gen 4 22 and 23 had reliability issues if you mounted too heavy a weapon light to the front of it.

I currently own 8 P320s, including two pre-recall 2016 models. All my P320's are as delivered from SIG, no modifications or aftermarket parts and I keep them clean.

Over the past 6 years, I handle and shoot these P320's (except for my M17 and M18 Commemoratives) more than all the other handguns I own. I have never had a P320 fire without pulling the trigger first.

I will say that the relatively light trigger and the lack of a manual safety on many models make this a pistol that you must be careful with, not for the inexperienced or careless shooter. But then again, you should be careful and aware of any firearm you are handling.

First I will declare my predjudice... which is I'm not comfortable carrying any striker fired pistol of either design. I have in the past but I much prefer DA/SA.

I still have to call BS on the Glock being 'safer' in my limited experience I really don't see it and having both a P320 sitting here on my desk as well as two Glocks.. I at least in dry firing them can't figure out the difference....
I have weighed the trigger pull on both and the Glock 19x needs about 1 -1.5 lbs more same with the Glock 31. . But the trigger on my P320 is not factory, the two Glocks are.

I know A lot of people don't like a manual safety. I do like them. At the time I purchased my P320, being a communist state, I could on have a 10 round magazine. At that time, my guy could only get me the P320 with the safety.

Either way, until it can be duplicated I don't believe it is an issue.

The news will tell you these are experienced operators and law enforcement people that this has happened to. These trained people (some) have taken many defensive driving classes but somehow manage to get into accidents. Must be negligent cars.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
And how many problems did Glock have with the same issue when they were mass adopted? Don't forget the Glock 22 and 23 had problems blowing up back in their early days. Then later on either the Gen 3 or Gen 4 22 and 23 had reliability issues if you mounted too heavy a weapon light to the front of it.

Yes, it supports my theory if you're talking about ADs. If even early Glocks had such a problem, how much more so for the 320.

quote:

I still have to call BS on the Glock being 'safer' in my limited experience I really don't see it and having both a P320 sitting here on my desk as well as two Glocks.. I at least in dry firing them can't figure out the difference....
I have weighed the trigger pull on both and the Glock 19x needs about 1 -1.5 lbs more same with the Glock 31. . But the trigger on my P320 is not factory, the two Glocks are.

You don't feel a difference when dry-firing both platforms? The Glock has increasing resistance all the way through Stage 1 (if Glocks can be said to have a Stage 1). The 320 has very small Stage 1 resistance, and it stays small right up to the firing break. The Sig also has a significantly shorter travel distance.

Incidentally, I believe the Glock actually has a lighter overall trigger pull than the P320. But I think it's more about the trigger behavior, not the basic pull weight.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
The P365 is fully cocked, and doesn't have a tabbed trigger, and yet we don't see the same rumors and complaints. Because there hasn't been the same level of media coverage about it's so-called problem for people to latch onto when they're looking to deflect blame.

Doesn't the P365 have different system or internals than the P320? Maybe this is why we haven't heard of any AD/ND issues with the P365.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:

quote:

I still have to call BS on the Glock being 'safer' in my limited experience I really don't see it and having both a P320 sitting here on my desk as well as two Glocks.. I at least in dry firing them can't figure out the difference....
I have weighed the trigger pull on both and the Glock 19x needs about 1 -1.5 lbs more same with the Glock 31. . But the trigger on my P320 is not factory, the two Glocks are.

You don't feel a difference when dry-firing both platforms? The Glock has increasing resistance all the way through Stage 1 (if Glocks can be said to have a Stage 1). The 320 has very small Stage 1 resistance, and it stays small right up to the firing break. The Sig also has a significantly shorter travel distance.

Incidentally, I believe the Glock actually has a lighter overall trigger pull than the P320. But I think it's more about the trigger behavior, not the basic pull weight.

Neither is 'safer'...Both go BANG when the Trigger is pulled! There isn't really any discernible difference in 'trigger behavior' when using the wrong holster, or allowing something to get within the trigger guard while reholstering! Both can and will have the same result...Just Sayin'