quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
There are no good reasons not to do the upgrade, IMO, ...

There's one, IMO: Some people have reported their P320's returning from the upgrade process with noticeably worse triggers.

That happened to me with my Walther PPS M2. A safety recall similar to that of the P320. I loved the trigger on the gun before I sent it in. Hated it after I got it back.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:

quote:

Originally posted by Paten:
BTW, nobody drops their gun on purpose.

They do if the cops tell them to drop it.

To which I will respond by bending down, setting it on the ground, and stepping back from it. Same thing I'd do with any firearm.

Well yes, there is that guy. I guess I should have left my last 3 unaltered and waited for screamincockatoo to beat down my door with his checkbook lol.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
There's one, IMO: Some people have reported their P320's returning from the upgrade process with noticeably worse triggers.

My 320 came back completely hosed. It would never go into battery on initial loading even after SEVERAL trips back. You had to smack the rear of the slide to get it to close.

I call bullshit on these "just going off" by themselves. I couldn't even get the one I had to work.

Now the M18 seems to be a vast improvement over the gen-1 320, so I am willing to give it a chance. Not to mention I really like a weapon with a manual safety. Just my preference and what I learned using 1911s.

The recal..er..voluntary upgrade program happened five years ago. I'd never buy a gun that predates that. I'd likely never buy one of these used. SIG is well known to slipstream improvements / upgrades into production. If I wanted one (and I'm having an uncalled for attraction to the XCompact RXP), I'd be very inclined to buy it new.

Not the gun with the problem.

At least at one point it was. Otherwise SIG would not have implemented the recal..er..voluntary upgrade program.

Have they gotten all the bugs worked out? We haven't seen raging flames, but there's some smoke wafting up. Could it all be user error? Maybe. But given how many guns of this type are out there from a large number of different manufacturers, if it were user error, I would think we'd see the reports if unsubstantiated incident to be more widely and equally distributed between brands.

quote:

Originally posted by Poli Viejo:
Not the gun with the problem.

Why do we studiously ignore the very high likelihood of selection bias in reporting supposed incidents?

History is full of examples of ideas or claims that spread because they became well known and were adopted by other people. One of the most notorious examples was the witch craze in Europe. People always suffer misfortunes, but once the idea that witches were responsible became accepted, then it became the assumed cause of virtually every bad thing that happened. Word comes that an accused and self-confessed (and tortured) witch was burned or hanged in a neighboring town, and now the hunt is on for them in our own town, and more witches are burned, or hanged, or otherwise judicially murdered. I’m reading a book now that documents how the witchcraft excuse was accepted and grew in a small 17th century Massachusetts town. Witches were blamed for everything imaginable, from bellyaches to infants’ dying in droves—as had been common for centuries and everywhere people lived.

In the case of firearms if someone wants an excuse to give or reason for something they don’t remember or realize that they did themselves, all it takes is a few seconds of Internet research to come up with a reason if it’s a P320. But why not other guns? Because there’s no support for someone’s claiming that a different model did the same thing, and especially certain different models. If a rookie cop told a supervisor that the Glock he’d been issued and had been used by the department for decades had gone off by itself, he’d be laughed—or thrown—out of the office, and that’s assuming he wasn’t just fired on the spot. People don’t claim that Glocks go off by themselves not because they don’t, but because there isn’t an hysterical mob already in place to support any new claim.

P320s are still a relatively new gun and there are many members of police agencies that resent the fact that they replaced an old favorite. How many times have a single improbable claim about a P320 resulted in their immediate abandonment and return to the old standard, usually Glocks? Those sorts of things are usually due to some range master or supervisor being cocked and ready to push his agenda at the slightest excuse, justified or not.

When people believe they’re surrounded by witches, they’re not hard to find.

And I’ll keep asking the question: If you believe a P320 can go off by itself without the trigger being pressed one way or another, how is that mechanically possible?

Edited for clarity.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

This is the stupidest thread I’ve ever read. (not really but the hyperbole of some posters is off the charts so I thought I would join in)

One guy in particular seems determined to push an idiotic notion that these things are going off by themselves. He is studiously ignoring the question of why they only mysteriously go off in holsters. Not in safes. Not on the coffee table. Just in holsters. He is also trying to push this ridiculous idea that it must be so because……., wait for it, people are suing. Oh fucking brother. If there is thinner rationale than this I don’t know what it is.

They just go off. This is like that old Family Circus carton. Wasn’t me.

OK, let's take it easy, please.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:

This reeks of a troll post.

Totally.

Forget the sear engagement.

These pistols have a striker safety in the slide. The gun cannot "go off" unless something manipulates the trigger in such a way that it disables the striker safety in the slide and releases the striker.

Either a finger or foreign object actuated the trigger making the gun go off.

Period.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KevH,

quote:

Originally posted by erikpolcrack:
I have an M17. I was wondering if applying the manual safety before holstering would protect me from this problem. Does the manual safety block the striker or does it only block the trigger?

It's not a "problem" as has been mentioned, but a manual safety blocks the trigger bar making it so the trigger can't move.

So if you are concerned about the trigger being accidentally actuated then yes, it would prevent any chance of that happening.

All you have to do is replicate it. Until you can, everything you think, want to think, theorize, read, heard, imagined, warned, preached, said, and think you know about these supposed occurrences goes straight into one of my ears and skips happily right out the other.

Replicate the issue or stop claiming there is one.

Its way past time these complaints and questions
should go away.
It's not the pistol. It's the person.

Poli Viejo

Or just make one of these posts a sticky at the top so we aren’t rehashing this subject.

While I have no dog in the fight and based on the striker safety/FPB alone they shouldn’t “just go off” I will play devils advocate.

A gun in a safe, nightstand, table etc. is stationary. A gun in a holster is typically exposed to all kinds of movements, vibrations, bumps etc. so holstered vs nightstand isn’t really apples to apples.

I still think they will ultimately find the triggers will have been pulled whether from holster flex, outside debris or whatever. Now does that mean the triggers need a trigger safety? Does that mean the pull distance is too short? Does it mean it is 100% a user training issue? I dunno.

One of the reasons I PERSONALLY don’t care for single action strikers (fully tensioned) is that while they make for pretty fantastic triggers their margins for user or equipment (holsters etc) error are much tighter.

When all the dust settles I think this will just be the cost of having a really nice trigger on the P320 and not be a design flaw but require a higher level of attention to detail. Glock went through this as well and they are not fully tensioned and have IMO much more deliberate feeling triggers (read crappier) vs P320/PPQ etc.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: cslinger,

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
At least at one point it was. Otherwise SIG would not have implemented the recal..er..voluntary upgrade program.

Have they gotten all the bugs worked out? We haven't seen raging flames, but there's some smoke wafting up. Could it all be user error? Maybe. But given how many guns of this type are out there from a large number of different manufacturers, if it were user error, I would think we'd see the reports if unsubstantiated incident to be more widely and equally distributed between brands.

quote:

Originally posted by Poli Viejo:
Not the gun with the problem.

The voluntary program started August 2017 not this week. And, that wasn't related to this at all. The gun came out in NA in 2014. There are probably over 2 million of them around the world. Yet, only the US police department seem to not be able to use them. The 1 suite in Canada it was shown the wrong holster was used which led to a trigger press.

quote:

Originally posted by Parrishghost:
The gun came out in NA in 2014. There are probably over 2 million of them around the world. Yet, only the US police department seem to not be able to use them. The 1 suite in Canada it was shown the wrong holster was used which led to a trigger press.

Speaking as a guy who grew up with a Father who was a cop for a while and liked to have some for friends for the rest of his life and who did the same, having cops for friends for most of my life, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Does anybody know if the big green machine carries the M17/18 with a round in the chamber? If these things have an actual problem the Army will find out.

I agree that movement vs stationary is a factor but not in the way you presented. Holster flex will not happen with a proper holster. Stuff getting in the holster pulling the trigger isn’t a gun problem. The only way this is a gun problem is if vibration and movement somehow combine to defeat the multiple systems that don’t allow the gun to fire without a trigger press. Are these guns failing? I haven’t seen or heard anything that makes me think it has happened even once.

quote:

Holster flex will not happen with a proper holster.

ACCCHHHHAAA!

That’s kinda what I was alluding to. Are the holsters up to spec whether by design or condition.

I do agree this will not be found to be a “mechanical error”. I was just trying to play devils advocate and look at things from all sides.

Besides I am a DA/SA troglodyte what do I know of these newfangled striker things…….that have been around since the late 1800s.

In all seriousness I do prefer a heavier trigger on any “serious social guns” just because I personally am more comfortable with it and I even ride the hammer when holstering Glocks.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
There are no good reasons not to do the upgrade, IMO, ...

There's one, IMO: Some people have reported their P320's returning from the upgrade process with noticeably worse triggers.

That happened to me with my Walther PPS M2. A safety recall similar to that of the P320. I loved the trigger on the gun before I sent it in. Hated it after I got it back.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:

quote:

Originally posted by Paten:
BTW, nobody drops their gun on purpose.

They do if the cops tell them to drop it.

To which I will respond by bending down, setting it on the ground, and stepping back from it. Same thing I'd do with any firearm.

That'll get you shot in a lot of places, but it's your call.