I am going to be the "hopeful" and state that I do not think so. First and foremost, professional integrity, secondly, the very appearance of ethical impropriety under the lights and lens focused on SIG, would be a foolish thing by sending in "ringers" and would be the absolute end of SIG as we know it.

You think Coke had a problem with trying to pull a fast one years ago...


I still think the "problem" is a trigger designed to be minimal press and light as possible, but does not make it suitable for mishandling and lack of awareness/attention.


As is encountered by military/LE who are in much more active physical enviornment, wearing a lot of gear and doing many things that most "everyday carry" folks do not encounter.

Same as mechanical work with tools. Guys that are doing it day in and day out, vs the "weekend" mechanic. I have been both and observed both, and "familiarity breeds contempt".

And working around aircraft munitions. You just get used to a nuke strapped to the belly of the jet that you forget to realize it's potential to do some damage.

And that ejection seat you were very aware of in the first few months watching everything you did while getting in and out and dicking around in the cockpit, and then you bounced in and out without a second thought. (and I have caught people in the cockpit doing maintenance, told the "STOP" and then reach up and get the bag of safety pins and stick it in their face and watch their eyes widen as their color goes white.)

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
Just to be the Devil's Advocate, do you think SIG sent anything but a perfect example(s) to be tested by the Swiss?

Implicit in your question is the suggestion that SIG-Sauer has identified "the problem" and provided test samples which are free of that defect.

Does that make sense to you?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
Just to be the Devil's Advocate, do you think SIG sent anything but a perfect example(s) to be tested by the Swiss?

I think perhaps a better way to express the sentiment would be to say that SIG sent in examples with 100% QC of all component parts. The guns would have all component parts well within the middle of the designed tolerance ranges for all parts. I think this is likely accurate and I think would ameliorate Para’a concerns that this perspective assumes a foregone conclusion that something is “wrong”.

Personally, I think it’s still a fair concern as even Bruce Gray’s analysis has shown that if improperly sized parts (i.e. 45acp parts in a 9mm pistol or vice versa) are installed then an unintentional discharge is at least feasible. I’m somewhere in the middle of the pistol’s design being unsuitable for the rigors of daily carry and the possibility that a few out of spec parts could severely exacerbate the pistol’s sensitivity and susceptibility to premature discharge. I think that it would not be too far out of line to assume that if an under or oversized part or two were accidentally installed before the pistol left NH that it could dramatically effect the pistol’s characteristics. It could also be supported by the lack of incidents with pistols that have Grayguns or aftermarket parts installed that have a higher level of QC than those produced by SIG.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:

I still think the "problem" is a trigger designed to be minimal press and light as possible, but does not make it suitable for mishandling and lack of awareness/attention.

I certainly believe this has played a role in some of these incidents but just like poor ammunition played a roll in most of the Glock .40 Kabooms back in the day, something else contributed to the unusually high number of events. A closer look revealed a Glock un-supported chamber large enough to cycle Winston Churchill's cigar butts. Once Glock tightened up the chamber, the problem all but went away.

I just don't believe P320 users are disproportionately careless. In a number of these cases, nothing points directly at mishandling or lack of awareness. If holster flex (as some here have suggested) or some other unknown event is happening, the first place I would look is the trigger design since other makes and models don't seem to be having this type of issue.

quote:

Originally posted by FotoTomas:
The amazing thing about this thread is after 79 pages over many months we as members have not found the answer yet.

As for me I have owned many 320’s over the last few years but am down to one and it is an M18. I shoot it rarely and not in competition or for carry. I am simply a veteran and like having military models of U. S. Weapons in my limited collection.

Hopefully proof of a problem with a solution can be found. If not then who knows how many years this thread will last.

I disagree.
I believe that the answer has always been right in front of us, some will not accept it, though.

Highly regarded gunsmith Mark Novak, premier SIG experts Bruce Gray and Robert Burke have weighed in with their opinions and those opinions reinforce my belief.
There is nothing mechanically defective with the P320.
The civilian and duty versions do not have external safeties and I believe this version was not a great option for a duty gun.
I think at the beginning SIG should have offered a duty version and a "sport" version of the P320.
The sport version would be the basic P320 that we have now.

The duty version would be specified by the individual department buyers.
The base model would have a bladed trigger and manual safety.
+10% power trigger and sear springs might be an option.
The dept. purchasing agent would specify what safety features would be included.

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
I think at the beginning SIG should have offered a duty version and a "sport" version of the P320.

The original P320 advertisement had the trigger dingus as an option like how S&W will give you an M&P with an manual safety and/or a magazine disconnect.

Excellent post DirectDrive. I think training may be deficient as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:... ... the first place I would look is the trigger design since other makes and models don't seem to be having this type of issue.

Yes. And I should have included in my post, the very possible issue that parts out of spec, or "stacking" of parts on the worse side of a spec for one or more parts could increase a unintended discharge.

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
I disagree.
I believe that the answer has always been right in front of us, some will not accept it, though.

If Sig would have rolled out this pistol like you suggested, there is a good chance this thread wouldn't even exist in the first place.

Bring us the dingus so the pistol doesn't sting us.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
Just to be the Devil's Advocate, do you think SIG sent anything but a perfect example(s) to be tested by the Swiss?

Yes, just like every manufacturer of any kind of product does when submitting for qualification. They make sure the examples they send are well within the specification.

Rarely (never?) does a qualification specify buying random example units from retail outlets.

I met a friend at a rifle range and let him shoot my target rifle. He's used to a stock battle rifle, FN-FAL clone. I told him to keep his finger off of the trigger until he's ready to fire.

He fired unintentionally because A) his finger was on the trigger and B) the trigger is very light and only moves a tiny distance before the sear trips. He was shocked!

I thought of the P320 situation and wondered how many guys were "just finding the trigger" and fired without meaning to. My P320 X-Five has a light trigger that travels a short distance to fire.

I have no way of knowing how many times this has happened. Some of the guys would rather blame the pistol than admit they didn't mean to fire or didn't know something about their pistol.

I tried to get my P320 X-Five to fire in many scenarios. I even put 1/2 the force required to fire on the trigger and pushed and pulled on the slide, but it wouldn't fire. Then I did the same thing with the barrel in a vertical orientation, such as in a holster, but it wouldn't fire. It simply will not fire until I pull the trigger.

My P320 works perfectly.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
Just to be the Devil's Advocate, do you think SIG sent anything but a perfect example(s) to be tested by the Swiss?

I've seen representatives from foreign govts. come into NH warehouses and randomly take items off the rack for testing. They didn't use specially built versions for anything.

Honest Outlaw also did some "testing" on getting multiple P320s to fire and this was what he found:

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
Honest Outlaw also did some "testing" on getting multiple P320s to fire and this was what he found:

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/20JTv_KAfdI?si=kntDxQQ6w5S64own" title="YouTube video player" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

Pretty sure nobody's been talking about drop safety for a long time now. Doesn't really show anything one way or the other with respect to the current set of questions.

Honest Outlaw is no fan of SIG pistols. In his video after this he ranked all the pistols he acquired for the drop test as his most disappointing pistols.

If the drop test showed no issues, how does Sig encourage an "independent" YT provider showing NO issues with ND or UCD? So many people were able to show issues (Wyoming, for example) in contrived ways. But, how exciting would it be for a video of people getting out of a patrol car over and over again without a UCD? Paint drying comes to mind. But, what can be done? How does the P320 return to just another pistol status?

quote:

Originally posted by k5blazer:
Honest Outlaw is no fan of SIG pistols. In his video after this he ranked all the pistols he acquired for the drop test as his most disappointing pistols.

In his recent video of five most disappointing guns, the number 1 spot was taken by all his P320s. He had more than a couple and it included the ones he bought for the drop tests. He thinks he can’t sell them.

Stop watching these anti-SIG Youtube prostitutes. Don't give them the attention they seek.

quote:

Originally posted by Fire Away:
Stop watching these anti-SIG Youtube prostitutes. Don't give them the attention they seek.

I think the same could be said for the pro sig fanboi hacks. You can’t really cast aspersions on one group without calling out the other. Regardless of how you feel about the 320 platform, I think we can all agree that the way that SIG handled the situation is worthy of some mockery.