Jmho, the word "Gaslighting" is unwarranted in describing Sig's responses. Gaslighting is lying to people to get them to disbelieve their own accurate observations of reality.

Sig's PR has been imperfect, yes. A bit tone deaf, yes. A strong dose of legal protectionism, yes.

But to date there is no known design or manufacturing defect causing the P320 to fire without the trigger being pulled. Sig is so far 100% correct in saying there is nothing wrong with the P320. They are justified in taking a hard line in their assertions, and justified in being extremely frustrated with the non-sense all over the internet.

This has been a witch hunt. FBI runs a second more accurate test. No discharges. Army keeps using them. Air Force backs off their moronic knee jerk reaction.

Assholes or not their guns aren’t just going off. Three widely respected organizations have separately tested them and found them safe to continue using.

That is the bottom line.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PASig:
Air Force command returns M18 pistols to service after force-wide inspections
..."

I have been negative of SIG USA (as in my post here https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...370098615#8370098615

I think the latest Airforce statement is a positive development for SIG, and to be honest for the whole civilian gun ownership.

I want to claim in any debate gun-control-debate, that any gun manufactured or imported in US since mid 1960s will not fire on its own.

I do think though, SIG will do well if they execute what I suggested in the post above -- they need to help the whole industry to develop better standard and attestation protocols -- they are in the position to do that, and make their guns safer still.

My gun club here in Georgia has prohibited use of P320s completely.
I've been persuing other interests lately and have missed a lot of the hubbub. Without reading through 75 pages of info, can someone summarize this for me?

quote:

Originally posted by Rolan_Kraps:
My gun club here in Georgia has prohibited use of P320s completely.
I've been persuing other interests lately and have missed a lot of the hubbub. Without reading through 75 pages of info, can someone summarize this for me?

They "seem" to have uncommanded discharges at a significantly higher rate than say a Glock. Sig blames it on the cops and/or worn parts. Cops and everyone else blames it on an inherent internal design flaw which Sig says doesn't exist.

Many owners and users that haven't shot their dicks off say they're fine, many people aren't taking the chance and just using something else.

Bottom line, if everyone just understood that a Sig P-series was the best thing ever made we wouldn't be in this mess.

quote:

Originally posted by mrprovy:
https://www.afgsc.af.mil/News/...-returns-to-service/

quote:

The inspection process identified discrepancies with 191 weapons across the command’s M18 inventory. The primary discrepancy was related to component wear. The most frequent issues centered on problems with the safety lever, striker assembly and sear. Weapons exhibiting these discrepancies were immediately tagged and are undergoing necessary repairs.

And this is the kind of stuff we need more detail on.

1. Did any of the guns actually fail function tests, or are we just talking about signs of wear?

2. How are the parts wearing and what criteria were used to make a determination about whether it needs addressed or not? Approximate round counts of the guns experiencing problems?

3. Were there any particular patterns identified that armorers or users should be checking for on a regular basis during inspections?

quote:

Originally posted by mrprovy:
https://www.afgsc.af.mil/News/...-returns-to-service/

Which I already posted yesterday on Page 74...

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
users should be checking for on a regular basis during inspections?

Although I have studiously ignored most YouTube videos claiming that the P320 can discharge without the trigger’s being pulled, the one I did watch was a discussion by a guy who obviously knew nothing about the gun itself, but was relying on second hand information from some supposed expert(s).

His claim was that the sear springs and the safety lock spring could (somehow) become fatigued to the point of not holding the safety lock and sear in the proper positions to prevent the striker from moving forward. A friend asked me about the claim and I therefore told him how I inspect my pistols.

The safety lock is visible at the bottom rear of the slide when the slide is removed.





Check to ensure the safety lock is present. Then push down on it to ensure it has sufficient spring pressure to be pushed back into position.* While you’re at it, check the striker hook to ensure it doesn’t show any signs of damage or excessive wear.

Next, the sear. The sear consists of two “ledges.” The one at the rear is what the striker hook normally engages and is held in position until the trigger is pulled. I examine it carefully to see that it’s not damaged. The front ledge is there to catch the hook if for some reason the hook slips off the rear ledge. I’m not aware of that’s happening, but before the P320 “upgrade” there was only one ledge and someone posted an opinion that the striker hook could just slip off spontaneously. Evidently the second ledge was added because of that claim—regardless of how valid it may be.

Look for any unusual wear or damage to the ledge. I recently checked the sear of my most-used training P320 that has had over 10,000 rounds fired with it. There was no noticeable wear on the sear ledge.





To check the strength of the sear springs push down on the sear behind the rear ledge with something like a punch (I like a wood chopstick). It should take significant force to do so.





If there is any apparent problem with the parts, then consider replacing them, and especially if there is any damage, chipping, etc.

Note that the safety lock and sear are independent mechanisms. Even if one failed, the other keeps the striker from moving forward to fire the pistol.

*As an aside about the safety lock, there was an Army publication of some years ago that claimed some pistols didn’t have the safety lock. That prompted me to inspect my agency’s guns and, sure enough, every P320 I’ve looked at has had a safety lock. And why would it be missing? The only possible way is for it to have been left out when the striker assembly was out of the gun; it could not fall out by itself. And why might a striker assembly be out of an Army weapon? Is it possible that some incompetent armorer or user had it out and after screwing around with things was unable to get the safety lock and spring back into proper place? I’m sure nothing like that could ever happen—right?

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by mrprovy:
https://www.afgsc.af.mil/News/...-returns-to-service/

Which I already posted yesterday on Page 74...

You did post...the Task & Purpose article. This was the direct link from Sig's email

Thank you SIGFREUND!

I considered installing a trigger with dingus, and purchased one from Agency Arms. In the bag are new sear springs (two), and the vendor claims these are higher spring force than the stock sear springs.

So, a potential upgrade, should some company like ISMI or Wolff think it worthwhile, would be stronger sear springs AND a shorter replacement interval.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
Why is that such a crazy notion? Is it really so impossible that there are more combinations of variables in play than the FBI could completely eliminate? I think even the most anti P320 person would state that an unintended discharge is very rare. Isn’t it at least possible that the FBI didn’t fire the gun enough to get all the variables to line up correctly and cause another unexpected discharge?

Now we're chasing ghosts ?
God could come down from the heavens and declare the P320 safe and the naysayers would still find something to nitpick.
That's where we are.

The P320 controversy has created a divide in the gun community.
On gunboards, I can often look at the poster's name and know what the tone and tenor of the post will be.

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
God could come down from the heavens and declare the P320 safe and the naysayers would still find something to nitpick.

"BEHOLD HIS MIGHTY HAND!"

quote:

God could come down from the heavens and declare the P320 safe and the naysayers would still find something to nitpick.

That is, unfortunately, where the P320 lives now. No matter what the name is tainted/the well poisoned so to speak.

I personally still fall into the camp that there is something at play and I am not happy how SIG has handled it but I also don’t think every P320 is a ticking timebomb and chances are you would never have an issue with one. All that said some kind of “definitive fix” even if as a placebo so to speak will need to be done or some kind of rebranding. I just think the P320 no matter its issues or not is pretty cooked in the market place.

Besides ain’t no way God cares or cares not for lowly striker fired plastic.

So we have these what if this, what if that.
How about if I put a screw in here and look what happens.
What if I change the trigger bar to a 45ACP trigger bar ?
Look what happens when I do that.
So much for the Youtube BS videos although they are successful at influencing some people.

Here is the reality.
This is a statement from a military trainer on another forum.
It so simple, and most of us knew that this was the case all along...

I have trained hundreds of Army and Army Reserve Soldiers on the M17 and been involved in training several thousand over the last 12 years. Early on there was an issue because many of the Soldiers were used to that long double action pull for the first round. No matter how many times we had them dry fire, no matter how many times we reminded them to keep their finger off the trigger, there were inevitably a couple ND’s per day. Maybe I shouldn’t call them ND’s, maybe they should be called “Premature discharges”, because it was normally when they were bringing the gun up from the Low Ready and at about 45 degrees and they would shoot the dirt in front of them… :censored:
In any case, it’s also similar to the transition for Police from revolvers to Glocks, hence the NY trigger.
cp

And my M18 is still problem free.

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
So we have these what if this, what if that.
How about if I put a screw in here and look what happens.
What if I change the trigger bar to a 45ACP trigger bar ?
Look what happens when I do that.
So much for the Youtube BS videos although they are successful at influencing some people.
[/i]

YouTube 'what if' videos are not what got us here in the first place. The unusually high rate of un-commanded discharges did.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
So we have these what if this, what if that.
How about if I put a screw in here and look what happens.
What if I change the trigger bar to a 45ACP trigger bar ?
Look what happens when I do that.
So much for the Youtube BS videos although they are successful at influencing some people.
[/i]

YouTube 'what if' videos are not what got us here in the first place. The unusually high rate of un-commanded discharges did.

And that's explained in my post above.

The high rate of claimed “uncommanded” discharges certainly got us here, but to assume that all or even any of the claims were valid is a perfect example of the logical fallacy of begging the question.

The example I’ve used before is that if a rookie cop walked into his chief’s office and claimed that his Glock had fired in the holster without something’s pulling the trigger, he would be laughed out of the place, if not fired on the spot. If, however, he now walks in and says that his P320 fired in the holster without the trigger’s being pulled, it would very likely be, “Yeah, I’ve heard those things were unsafe. We’re going to get the county to pay to replace them all with Glocks.”

How many times has something like that happened (I know of one personally), and it has led to other organizations and businesses such as firearms trainers just saying, “No P320s here,” on the basis of second-hand claims at the very best? As a real example, there’s a video of a firing line at a training facility and suddenly there’s an unintentional discharge at the far end where even the shooter cannot be seen, much less the discharge and what may have caused it. The trainer’s reaction? “Is that a P320? Get it off my range!” I assume the shooter may have said something like, “It just went off,” but what would have been anyone’s reaction if he had had a Glock—or virtually any other gun—and made the same claim? “It just went off,” is a tired joke among responsible gun owners, unless, of course it’s a P320, and then, “Oh, yeah, I’ve heard those things were unsafe.”

As one YouTuber said, the P320’s reputation has been destroyed and there’s probably no way of fixing it, but that doesn’t prove that the reputation is justified any more than the fact that countless other reputations have been destroyed for no valid reason.

I would love to see Sig Sauer suck it up and add a trigger dingus and let's see what happens.