Board of directors for the indoor range where I shoot meets tomorrow night and the subject of banning the 320 is on the agenda. Would not surprise me if they do, they already ban Hi Points for not being drop safe. The range officers tonight were acting like the ban is already in effect. I had to play 20 questions tonight when I signed in about what I was shooting

Would really suck for me in that the next closest indoor range is in Fairbanks, 6 hours away. I’m writing to the president of the board tonight asking him to hold off on any bans until there is something more conclusive as to what the issue is.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Just curious- have any of the youtubers eaten any crow publicly over the false story of how the Airman was shot?

No, but Colion Noir made two videos about how the gun community will jump to conclusions without all the facts available.

Just a couple of facts regarding the airman incident.

After nearly a month, the accused - charged of involuntary manslaughter is yet to be identified. Why? Enlighten me.

Involuntary manslaughter - unintentional killing of another person during the commission of a lawful act done with negligence or recklessness, or during the commission of an unlawful act that is not a felony.

The first reports of the tragedy were based on the Air Force's statements.

Joe you hate the 320. We get it. It’s been stated hundreds of times, yet no one has ever actually made a holstered 320 go off. Never. Never ever. Ever ever. See? Just repeating something over and over does not make it more or less true.

You won’t even acknowledge the holstered Air Force story as claimed is a complete fabrication. A holstered gun didn’t go off. It was your smoking gun. And yet it wasn’t. Now your perch is that it’s mysterious how we don’t have a name yet. So the fuck what? That doesn’t change the FACT that the gun went off because a second human was negligently handling it. Would knowing his name was Airman first class Schmuckatelly change those facts?

Like I said before this is the worst of the internet. Just repeating lies, yes lies, over and over until the desired effect occurs. There is not a single documented, proven, repeatable test, gun, event that actually has a 320 shooting a projectile without actual trigger input. That is the truth at this point. Everything else is an internet witch hunt and conjecture.

And yea, I do think we are being very selective in our outrage. My Shadow 2’s and very nearly every 1911 I own aren’t drop safe. Hell, the old 320 went off when dropped at a very specific angle. My series 70 1911’s aren’t nearly so particular. So is drop safety an ABSOLUTE requirement or not? I prefer drop safe yet I own at least a dozen pistols that I would/do carry that absolutely aren’t drop safe. Witch hunt.

Alot of assumptions there.
But not unlike Sig, deflection.

"So the fuck what" to knowing the facts?
Yet you claim to know them?

"FACT that the gun went off because a second human was negligently handling it."

Got a link to a conviction?

That is what I’m talking about. You say “assumptions”. Do you know what that word means? I don’t think you do or at least you are willfully misapplying it. My statement above yours has zero assumptions. Stating there hasn’t been a repeatable proven 320 “just going off” isn’t an assumption. It is factual.

You imply the 320 is still at fault in the Air Force shooting because of some nebulous reasoning that you don’t have a name of the accused. So clearly the 320 is still the focal point of that investigation right? Even though someone was charged with a crime. You are the one making goofy assumptions because you have an entrenched position facts be damned.

There are a dozen videos on this thread trying to prove your point. Deck screws embedded in gun frames, bolts attached to depress triggers, dental picks inserted everywhere, do this, do that, shake this, assemble it incorrectly, put the spring here instead of here, it’s mind numbing. It also hasn’t produced a smoking gun.

It’s a design that is short on safety margins compared to industry standard. Like I pointed out earlier though, those standards are fluid. Drop safe isn’t a universal baseline for safety. The last 3 1911’s I bought, of new manufacture, are series 70 style and absolutely will fire if dropped under the right conditions. A RSO in Arizona died after a Shadow 2 was dropped and it went off. S2’s aren’t banned.

The lie is they just go off. Prove it. Nobody has yet, maybe you can be the first. Your assumption is basic. You watched videos of guns going off and you assumed they just went off. You don’t care that further study showed the trigger was actually manipulated. Or that the airman was shot by another. Please don’t preach about assumptions.

Edited to add: I just read your edit. You sir are getting dangerously close to buffoonery. Do I have a link to a conviction? Umm, no since it fucking happened on July 20th. That isn’t even a month ago. Your premise that not having a conviction 24 days after the crime is beyond stupid. Which also tells me you get the final word because if I keep discussing this with you I will get into trouble with the boss and I have been so good since I’ve been back. lol Enjoy the floor.

Let me repeat.

"FACT that the gun went off because a second human was negligently handling it."

Got a link to a conviction?

My ONLY point is the gun is a failure and a bad design.
From the beginning it's been a POS.

If you want to know, ask, don't make assumptions.
But feel free to rant on about things you think you know.
Stay angry it clouds one's judgment

quote:

Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
Board of directors for the indoor range where I shoot meets tomorrow night and the subject of banning the 320 is on the agenda.

Got the notification from our range last week. They have signs posted everywhere as well.

I kind of feel bad because my bil shoots a Max Michel X5, or did, for IDPA and I convinced him buying a spare was a good call if he continued to compete. Oops.

Sig had better have a plan to get these things back to kosher.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeGLI:

Got the notification from our range last week.

What range is that?

Central Florida Rifle and Pistol

quote:

Originally posted by MikeGLI:

quote:

Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
Board of directors for the indoor range where I shoot meets tomorrow night and the subject of banning the 320 is on the agenda.

Got the notification from our range last week. They have signs posted everywhere as well.

I stopped in a new LGS near my house yesterday. No P320 restrictions that I could see.
Still had P320s on the shelf for sale & one of the counter guys had what looked like a P320 on his hip.

quote:

Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
Board of directors for the indoor range where I shoot meets tomorrow night and the subject of banning the 320 is on the agenda.

One intermediate option would be to require the 320 to always be pointed down range when loading/loaded/unloading. So no drawing from a holster, and perhaps no placing it down onto a table while loaded. It must be transported fully unloaded and encased (not holstered).

Thus any unexpected discharge would go safely down range.

I think SIG’s pig headedness may well be what ruins the P320 in the end. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of people would be willing to give the P320 a shot or another shot if it had a trigger dingus. SIG’s outright refusal to even offer one illustrates a lack of customer concern and/ or connection to a lot of people. If they were to say, “we still don’t believe that there is anything wrong here and our pistol has passed all standardized testing requirements, HOWEVER, we understand your concerns and are willing to offer this trigger dingus upgrade as an additional safety precaution to those that prefer it,” I think it would go a long way. I think it would at least help them regain the trust of some customers that will no longer consider purchasing anything from SIG based upon the way they’ve handled the P320.

^^ Uhhh, the VAST majority people complaining about the P320 the not having a 'trigger dingus', don't have a P320, and don't want one/wouldn't get one anyway! Most of them are quite happy with their Glock pistols, will tell you so without hesitation, and seemingly fault SIG for not duplicating the Glock when they designed the P320 in the first place!

Regarding actual P320 owners, I'd be willing to bet many (most?) purchased the P320 because it had a better trigger than all of the other striker fired pistols out there, and the fact that it did NOT have a 'trigger dingus'.

Is there a published forensic engineering type report on an actual failed gun? Know of a forensic report kept secret by lawyers?

I do not credit the Youtube Engineers poking at random guns with much.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
Is there a published forensic engineering type report on an actual failed gun? Know of a forensic report kept secret by lawyers?

Just the Michigan State Police report that's buried somewhere that was tested by the FBI and were able to get the striker to fire with fulling pressing the trigger about 6 or 7 times out of 50.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
Regarding actual P320 owners, I'd be willing to bet many (most?) purchased the P320 because it had a better trigger than all of the other striker fired pistols out there, and the fact that it did NOT have a 'trigger dingus'.

I believe the biggest selling point was the modular chassis system but will admit many do like having a trigger without the dingus. I would like it too if it didn't come with a pesky downside. IMO, Walther has the best striker-fired trigger and it has a dingus.

I've had 4 P320's and bought them for the modularity. Having one FCU and different slides/grips. One gun, multiple roles. Bought the marketing BS.
Extra slides/ grip modules were very slow to develop and become available.
Caliber exchange kits were a joke and nearly the price of a new pistol. Me 150-200 buck cheaper? But why no size exchange kits?

2 - early P320's both wouldn't cycle ammo. The first went to GG after Sig and the failures were never fixed. I thought, well bad sample of 1. Sold it bought another and had more reliability issues.

Next was a VTAC and XCompact. Liked both of them the VTAC performed very well but the compact gave way to a Walther PDP 4".
Did a Gunsite 350 pistol course with the VTAC and during the school drill, switched out for a Glock 19 which I just shot better especially at distance. Gun or me, didn't matter, but I think the P320 is not as accurate as the Glock or Walther.

Then I got the G45 and the P320's were gone. Sold both P320s in 2020 and never looked back.

As far as Sig making things "kosher" with the P320, it's been out since 2014.
Kinda wondering when exactly it was ever GTG, given all the issues.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^ Uhhh, the VAST majority people complaining about the P320 the not having a 'trigger dingus', don't have a P320...

One thing that has been kind of fascinating about this whole issue is the internet/human response. There are definitely a lot of strong opinions. I have read so many passionate arguments about how the P320 is an absolute POS...I'm curious how many of those people have actually owned a P320 or put in a significant number of rounds/carry time on one. Because I've been carrying one for 8 years, and nothing about it has ever given me a reason to hate it.

I don't fault anybody for having concerns about the safety of the design at this point...I'm just surprised at the emotional investment and passion that some people seem to have on the topic.