quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

I understand the frustration folks have with many of the YouTube videos. Many are complete BS. Unfortunately for Sig, those YouTube videos are not what landed Sig in hot water with the P320. It's the dozens and dozens of documented incidents with the P320 that far exceed all the other service pistols combined. If reason, logic and critical thinking is important, this can't be dismissed.

^ Good example of critical thinking and logic.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
^^^That video was posted on page 60 and discussion of it can be found on pages 60-62 including 92fstech’s excellent analysis w/pics in the second to last post on page 62.
<<snip>>

Oops, I missed it since it wasn't embedded. Sorry for the dupe...

No disrespect intended but your definition of “dozens and dozens of documented incidents” doesn’t add up to proof or evidence of anything.

Nearly every video we see is poor quality and/or shows us little of what actually happened. The last two events, just look at those. Air Force security stops using the 320 because of an uncommanded event. Except it wasn’t. At all. Then this last cop gets out of his cruiser, BANG! I didn’t touch it, I swear. Yep, correct, your seatbelt did.

I moved on from this platform years ago for my own reasons. If I had to strap a 320 on in a suitable holster that covered the trigger guard completely. I would do so with absolute confidence it wouldn’t just go off. Nothing shown so far indicates otherwise.

What is indicated is that this design is wildly intolerant of mishandling, foreign body intrusion, or stupidity. To such an extent that I would not think it would be a great choice for most LE. They don’t just go off. That is the point. If they ever actually show that they do I will come back and accept my comeuppance.

This whole episode is the best “gun” version of why you never want to get on the wrong side of the internet tsunami of bad/poor/inaccurate information cycles. They will beat you down regardless of being correct or not. Or lying. Or making up moronic testing protocol to support a position. Or not reading the manual and calling a safety feature a “dangerous condition”. The list goes on and on.

Here's an older but good explanation of the multiple interacting safety mechanisms of the P320 FCU.



Here a link to a video animation with all of the parts color coded showing the continuous interaction of the multiple safety mechanisms of the P320.

P320 Safety Features - 5 Steps Required to Fire a P320

The only thing not really covered is the Sear Safety Cam Projection (extended leg on the rear of the sear), which provides both a mechanical timing function and an add'l level of protection (secondary safety functionality) for preventing a P320 from discharging without the trigger being pulled. Here's a video from GrayGuns that provide a detailed explanation of the functionality (and importance!) of the feature.




Feel free to suspend logic (and critical thinking?) in order to explain the circumstances of how these mechanically interacting safety mechanisms fail to function (in concert?) and result in a P320 discharging without the trigger being pulled, let alone one secured in a holster!

I've got an open mind but...Until there is evidence to the contrary, and occurrences of such discharges can be replicated, it would seem unpossible!

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:Then this last cop gets out of his cruiser, BANG! I didn’t touch it, I swear. Yep, correct, your seatbelt did.

Well....I'm a bit skeptical of that as well. How in the heck does the male end of a seatbelt that is in the process of retracting manage to find its way into the holster and into the trigger space? Are they claiming that he didn't really have his seatbelt fastened and instead inserted it into his holster? No warning chime that would have alerted him to that condition as he drove around?

Well with the video provided there is no way to tell. He might have finger fucked it. Something caught in the trigger guard gap. Tiny aliens pulled the trigger. Who knows? And yet it is now part of the “dozens and dozens of documented incidents”. I would bet a thousand dollars cash that they couldn’t get that gun to recreate that ND without pulling the trigger in some manner.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
It's the dozens and dozens of documented incidents with the P320 that far exceed all the other service pistols combined. If reason, logic and critical thinking is important, this can't be dismissed.

I agree, but the only documented and proven failure modes with the P320 have happened with other handguns as well. People ignore this and immediately go to there's a problem with the P320 that allows it to fire without the trigger being pulled. People accept this as fact despite overwhelming evidence that this does not happen.

Those people are not using reason, logic, or critical thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:Then this last cop gets out of his cruiser, BANG! I didn’t touch it, I swear. Yep, correct, your seatbelt did.

Well....I'm a bit skeptical of that as well. How in the heck does the male end of a seatbelt that is in the process of retracting manage to find its way into the holster and into the trigger space? Are they claiming that he didn't really have his seatbelt fastened and instead inserted it into his holster? No warning chime that would have alerted him to that condition as he drove around?

If we are talking about the Roscommon, MI Sheriff's Deputy, then he didn't put his seat belt on in the first place and it's unlikely it was the buckle from his seat belt. I think this is a case where the media got the details wrong, which of course has never happened before. It's not inconceivable the Sherrif's department's investigation concluded a "buckle" lodged in the holster and the reporter assumed that meant seatbelt buckle when it could have been a buckle from the holster, a backpack, or whatever else was in the vehicle.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:Then this last cop gets out of his cruiser, BANG! I didn’t touch it, I swear. Yep, correct, your seatbelt did.

Well....I'm a bit skeptical of that as well. How in the heck does the male end of a seatbelt that is in the process of retracting manage to find its way into the holster and into the trigger space? Are they claiming that he didn't really have his seatbelt fastened and instead inserted it into his holster? No warning chime that would have alerted him to that condition as he drove around?

I agree and will go one further. All this talk about buckles, keys, belt keepers, etc. getting into holsters neglects the fact that those same things happen to people carrying Glocks, S&Ws, HKs, etc. but those other pistols are not discharging unexpectedly the way that the P320 is. Even if there turns out to be nothing mechanically wrong with the P320, there’s lots of evidence that the pistol is not ideal for the purposes that it’s marketed for. Real life usage of firearms isn’t like an IDPA, USPSA, etc. range where guns can always be kept pointed down range, pistols are drawn from the open or minimal concealment, etc. If a pistol is so intolerant of less than ideal handling then it has no place in use as a defensive carry weapon.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
I agree and will go one further. All this talk about buckles, keys, belt keepers, etc. getting into holsters neglects the fact that those same things happen to people carrying Glocks, S&Ws, HKs, etc. but those other pistols are not discharging unexpectedly the way that the P320 is.

Those other pistols are discharging unexpectedly. I’ve posted links to Glocks and a S&W M&P, I don’t think I posted the links to the stories with the Beretta 92 and PX4 Storm I read, and there’s another thread where an MSP trooper had her holstered P365 discharge in her purse. It does seem to be happening with the P320 much more often. The reasons for this were pointed out in the first 3 pages of this thread. Nothing that has been posted since refutes those reasons and much of what’s been posted supports those reasons.

I agree with everything you wrote after this.

quote:

Even if there turns out to be nothing mechanically wrong with the P320, there’s lots of evidence that the pistol is not ideal for the purposes that it’s marketed for. Real life usage of firearms isn’t like an IDPA, USPSA, etc. range where guns can always be kept pointed down range, pistols are drawn from the open or minimal concealment, etc. If a pistol is so intolerant of less than ideal handling then it has no place in use as a defensive carry weapon.

For me this is the period ending the entire discussion. Add to this Sig's gobsmackingly tone-deaf handling of the ordeal, and here we are. The minute dissection of the working mechanisms of the pistol itself are fascinating, and I've learned a LOT just reading through this entire thread. I own one P320 compact, never had an issue, and it now lives unloaded in the safe until/if something concrete comes out.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
Even if there turns out to be nothing mechanically wrong with the P320, there’s lots of evidence that the pistol is not ideal for the purposes that it’s marketed for... If a pistol is so intolerant of less than ideal handling then it has no place in use as a defensive carry weapon.

If this turns out to be the case - which is looking like Sig's 'best case scenario', then nearly all of these UD/AD/NDs - including the ones that lead up to their 2017 drop-fire fiasco - would have been prevented if they simply had used a trigger shoe w/ a safety tab/dingus/blade or hinged trigger as every other single-action-capable striker fired gun does. It's the bone-headed decision that keeps coming back to haunt them.

If I were on the jury on a civil lawsuit, I'd be inclined to rule against Sig for that reason alone.

^^ Maybe...Maybe Not!

I think we can say with certainty, if the P320 had a trigger safety, the drop safety issue would've been avoided.

But Sig included in the "voluntary upgrade" a mech disconnector also. Sig even then didn't want to admit to a design deficiency and issue a recall. Failure to acknowledge Sig's issues with the P320 from the beginning is the very definition of suspending logic, reasoning and critical thinking.

^^ Probably, BUT...Regarding the original 'Drop Safe' issue, it my understanding (I've heard this from multiple sources, including from someone in Engineering/Development at SIG) that the original P320 design was evaluated (and passed) all industry standard testing protocols that existed at the time. The 'Drop Safe' issue that was revealed, occurred at a unique and specific angle that was outside of (between?) the testing protocol that was used by all firearms manufacturers. NOBODY was testing/drop testing Pistols at the angle where the issue occurred. Just sayin'

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
NOBODY was testing/drop testing Pistols at the angle where the issue occurred. Just sayin'

"Grab my arm."
"The other arm."
"My other arm!"
"Ok, I'm going to break the wrist and walk away."

Sounds like a convenient way to test.

No single model/modern handgun from a major manufacturer has had as many issues as the P320.

Just saying
The most tested and proven sidearm EVA!
Talk about suspending logic, reasoning and critical thinking.

And now Sig is going the extra mile putting the P320's in a shaker. A DECADE after introduction, because "Safety Without Compromise" <- Straight from the P320 Sig landing page.
LOL Come on man.



Still waiting to hear from those still carrying a P320 too. Yo

added - Sig might want to have it's lawyers read this.
The disconnect safety is only on those gun that were "voluntarily upgraded".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Blackwater,

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

I agree, but the only documented and proven failure modes with the P320 have happened with other handguns as well. People ignore this and immediately go to there's a problem with the P320 that allows it to fire without the trigger being pulled. People accept this as fact despite overwhelming evidence that this does not happen.

Those people are not using reason, logic, or critical thinking.

It would be great if you could provide some documentation that shows other pistols going off un-commanded in holsters at a rate anywhere close to those involving the P320. A document like the one below would go a long way in convincing me. It's a legal document. Unlike your average YouTube videos, litigants in civil cases can be held accountable for lying. If the data is there, I would love to see it.

https://www.smbb.com/wp-conten...or-Mass-Action-4.pdf

I found this part interesting.

"Internal documents from Immigration Customs Enforcement provide that unintended discharges skyrocketed when it switched its primary weapon from a Glock to the P320, with the P320 accounting for a nearly 500% increase in unintended discharges."

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:Then this last cop gets out of his cruiser, BANG! I didn’t touch it, I swear. Yep, correct, your seatbelt did.

How in the heck does the male end of a seatbelt that is in the process of retracting manage to find its way into the holster and into the trigger space?

I'm sorry. I haven't been able to follow every single video. Was the police officer right handed or left handed?

While I could see this happening much easier with a left handed officer as opposed to a right handed officer, I don't think it outside the realm of possibility that this could happen to a right handed officer as well. I see how the belt could get caught on any piece of equipment and just be dangling there.

^^^The Roscommon, MI Sheriff’s Deputy had his holster on his right side.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
It would be great if you could provide some documentation that shows other pistols going off un-commanded in holsters at a rate anywhere close to those involving the P320.

Not at that rate and I acknowledged that just a few posts up:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Those other pistols are discharging unexpectedly. I’ve posted links to Glocks and a S&W M&P, I don’t think I posted the links to the stories with the Beretta 92 and PX4 Storm I read, and there’s another thread where an MSP trooper had her holstered P365 discharge in her purse. It does seem to be happening with the P320 much more often. The reasons for this were pointed out in the first 3 pages of this thread. Nothing that has been posted since refutes those reasons and much of what’s been posted supports those reasons.

The links are within the last 5 or 6 pages. I suspect you’ve seen those because of the change in your argument:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
They can't explain why P320s are the only pistols having issues.

You’ve gone from only P320s to it happens more often in P320s.

All anybody has to do to prove a holstered P320 can fire without the trigger moving is find one that does. Just one. Claiming it happened does not mean it happened, that’s been proven in court and with the Air Force incident. A reported hundreds of cases and not one has been shown to be capable of doing what was claimed. The FBI, the lawyers, the lawyers experts, etc. have not done it.

I like court documents, but the ones from the plaintiffs’ attorneys are ripe with hyperbole.

500% increase? Sounds scary. The LASD had a 500% increase in accidental discharges when they switched from the Beretta 92 to the S&W M&P:

First on CNN: Guns used by LA deputies put officers, public at risk, report says

Excerpts:
“The Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm was introduced to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department in 2013. The following year, accidental discharges in the field shot up by more than 500%”

“There is a continued risk that either LASD employees or civilians may be seriously wounded or killed by an unintended discharge,” Huntsman wrote.

“We conclude that the current training program is insufficient to overcome old habits learned on other handguns,” the 52-page report states. “As a result, many deputies appear to be to undertrained for the weapon they are using.”

This message has been edited. Last edited by: trapper189,