OK, guys

Sorry Para. I'll cool it.

It's just a question I've yet to hear a good answer for from those that defend the platform.

I don’t read it as defending the platform. I read it as being sick and tired of the internet declaring something as fact when in fact it’s about as far from fact as you can get.

Conjecture, hypotheses, theories? Sure, but not even close to facts. The only real facts are that basically every story we hear of these guns shooting without any trigger input turn out to not quite be true. One airman shoots another airman. A seat buckle gets into a holster and depresses the trigger. There are key marks inside the trigger guard. See where all this is going? Nobody can recreate the ND without getting goofy with the test protocol.

I’m old enough to still believe in the scientific method. If these guns “just go off” you should be able to recreate the event. Especially with the actual guns in question. You know, the ones with tolerance stacking, incorrectly assembled, poor mim parts, yea all that stuff. And yet they can’t.

Argue all day that Sig went too far creating the shortest, lightest, crispest, non dingus striker of all time. Saying categorically that these things are shooting by themselves though is a bridge too far in terms of credibility.

I had 6 at one point. Shot a couple cases through them, competed with them, ended up being stuck now with 3 that no sane person would pay decent money for. lol. I got out of the platform before any of this stuff blew up so I’m no fanboy. I do like a well reasoned argument with actual proof though. That’s what this drama is lacking.

We might as well start believing Tom Cruise is bringing Longmire to the big screen if we are going to believe everything the internet tells us. Even something as simple as the original FBI testing was wrong. Sig had no input. Except it turns out they did. This whole story is fucked. As is the 320 whether they just go off or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^ The Toyota UA cases were largely determined to be operator error, with the driver applying pressure to the accelerator, either directly (wrong pedal), or indirectly, with the floor mat between the right foot and the accelerator. Hmmm, reminds me of the P320s too.

This does sound like something Toyota Sig would say.

That's cute, but actually it's what the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and the NASA Engineers involved in the study said about the issue!

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

It's a simple question. I would like to hear your answer.

Still there, nhracecraft? Still no clue why P320s are the only pistols having issues with keys getting into the holsters of poorly trained officers?

I don't have that answer, and if I did, I would've posted it SIXTY PAGES ago...But apparently NOBODY else does either! All of the evidence thus far points to the trigger being pulled though. It's just the manner that varies. And while fingers been implicated/involved, there have been numerous things (that don't belong in holsters!) shown to be the cause of discharges by holstered P320 Pistols, including jackets, zipper pulls, shirts, keys, seat belt buckles, and the list goes on.

I'm NOT defending anything here. I would simply like to see verifiable evidence and testing with repeatable outcomes to determine what's happening with holstered P320 Pistols...Conjecture being promulgated as fact is NOT evidence of anything!

OK, you've both had your say.

I'll be sitting the next couple of plays out.

Could the "problem" be as simple as the exact way the gun is reassembled??? I saw another video that hinted at this and cannot find it now, but this one will do nicely...

I can 100% see this as being a very common problem that is causing UDs. Unfortunately it also leaves the question in my mind: "Why would SIG design something that could be this easy to mess up?" Obviously that could have just not considered that possible failure mode in testing, and assumed everyone would 100% follow the directions exactly as stated in the manual!

I'll leave it up to you guys to decide.

^^^That video was posted on page 60 and discussion of it can be found on pages 60-62 including 92fstech’s excellent analysis w/pics in the second to last post on page 62.

The discussion now continues on page 63:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
<snip>

This is concerning, but far from a “smoking gun” explanation for the P320 problems. One, I had to re-assemble the gun using a non-intuitive and improper sequence to even create the perched sear condition in the first place. Two, I wasn’t able to get the striker to drop, even with the sear “perched”, and even after banging it around, twisting, squeezing, and pulling on it. Three, the striker safety block would have still been engaged and caught the striker if it had managed to drop from the sear.

I'll be calling Sig tomorrow. We’ll see what they say.

First, thank you for the whole analysis with pics at the bottom of page 62. These are the posts contributing to the discussion that make the thread worthwhile.

Second, can a loaded magazine be inserted in this condition without first locking the slide back?

If not, then is this condition corrected when the slide is locked back and a magazine inserted?

If so, does racking the slide to chamber a round correct this condition? I completely understand if you don’t want to test this with live ammunition, but maybe you have some snap caps or dummy rounds.

If a round can’t be chambered with the gun in this condition, then it’s not an issue.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I don’t read it as defending the platform. I read it as being sick and tired of the internet declaring something as fact when in fact it’s about as far from fact as you can get.

This is where I’m at. Reason, logic, and critical thinking are still valid.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: trapper189,

What a friggin idiotic video. Why do we give these guys clicks? Could he use the term “dangerous condition” more often? I doubt it.

Sig made the gun assemble/disassemble in such a way that pulling the trigger is unnecessary. Of all the things they could have done better this isn’t the one. The guy is an idiot. The magazine not going in should have been his first clue. And yet it wasn’t. Reading the manual or ask a question? Nope.

Shockingly stupid video. That guy needs a swift kick in the nuts and internet rights revocation. To summarize he is an idiot and full of shit. Even under his worst case scenario who loads ammo while reassembling a gun? Nobody. He is manufacturing his own crisis while claiming he solved the issue. What a tard.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
^^^That video was posted on page 60 and discussion of it can be found on pages 60-62 including 92fstech’s excellent analysis w/pics in the second to last post on page 62.

The discussion now continues on page 63:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
<snip>

This is concerning, but far from a “smoking gun” explanation for the P320 problems. One, I had to re-assemble the gun using a non-intuitive and improper sequence to even create the perched sear condition in the first place. Two, I wasn’t able to get the striker to drop, even with the sear “perched”, and even after banging it around, twisting, squeezing, and pulling on it. Three, the striker safety block would have still been engaged and caught the striker if it had managed to drop from the sear.

I'll be calling Sig tomorrow. We’ll see what they say.

First, thank you for the whole analysis with pics at the bottom of page 62. These are the posts contributing to the discussion that make the thread worthwhile.

Second, can a loaded magazine be inserted in this condition without first locking the slide back?

If not, then is this condition corrected when the slide is locked back and a magazine inserted?

If so, does racking the slide to chamber a round correct this condition? I completely understand if you don’t want to test this with live ammunition, but maybe you have some snap caps or dummy rounds.

If a round can’t be chambered with the gun in this condition, then it’s not an issue.

1. No, a loaded mag cannot be inserted with the gun in this condition, because the takedown safety lever is still blocking the magwell.

2. As soon as the slide catch is lifted to lock the slide to the rear, the takedown safety lever is released to go forward, and a mag can now be inserted. The striker/sear engagement also returns to 100%.

3. Simply racking the slide alone will not correct the condition...the slide catch must be raised to release the takedown safety lever.


I agree that it shouldn't be an issue based on order of operations. Like I said in my original post on page 62, it's no smoking gun. But there's something goofy with this particular set of takedown safety levers that's causing this batch of guns to operate in a manner that is different from all my other guns, and I'd like some answers about why it's doing this. I'd also much prefer that it not.

Raise your hand if you're still carrying the P320 appendix carry with one in the chamber.

Then we can also talk about hyperbole.

I won't 'appendix carry' ANY pistol...Never have, Never will.

I carry behind the hip thank you, unless I'm wearing a jacket, in which case I've got add'l options, and would/could commonly use a shoulder rig or holstered pocket carry depending on what jacket I'm wearing.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

Ok, here it goes. Sorry, this is long, so buckle up.

Holy moly, that is a fantastic post! Thank you for all your time and effort.

If sear perch is a necessary precondition before an uncommanded discharge, you may have identified a simple inspection to identify which guns need a part replacement.

Not an Sig P320 fanboy. Don’t own one. Own quite a few legacy P2XX Sigs. I believe something is going on with the P320 and, I would be apprehensive to carry one. And certainly not appendix.

However, what is being shown is that if assembled the wrong way, a magazine can’t be inserted into the gun. The gun can’t be loaded in the unsafe condition. I suppose one could drop a loaded round in the chamber but, you would know something is amiss if the magazine won’t go in the gun.

So. Can the magazine be forced into the gun in the unsafe condition? Can a slightly out of spec magazine go in the gun?

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
I won't 'appendix carry' ANY pistol...Never have, Never will.

I carry behind the hip thank you, unless I'm wearing a jacket, in which case I've got add'l options, and would/could commonly use a shoulder rig or holstered pocket carry depending on what jacket I'm wearing.

This thread is about the P320. You carrying P320?

^^ I believe 'My Point' was quite valid.

That said, I do have an OWB Kydex holster for CCW, and and a Kenai Chest Rig for a P320 (Compact/Carry variant), as well as a Safariland 7000 Series SLS (Lever II) Holster for a full size P320 that I typically use for training/range carry.

My primary carry is a HK USPc in 357 SIG though, followed by a P365-X, and I NEVER point ANY of them at my junk!.

Here's something else I won't do...Holster a Pistol w/ a WML! And while I do have a full size HK USP, which or many not have a Surefire X300 mounted on it depending on the circumstance, if I 'need' a Firearm with a WML on it, I'll be holding a rifle!

For what it is worth:

My P320 is the Carry version in .40 S&W purchased used in 2019.
My FCU is identical to the top one in the photo from 92sftech.
All markings are the same except on his there is a "6" at the middle and mine says "5".

PC

Lots' of cops didn't have P320's pointed at their junk either, yet they still went off in the holster and were injured. So lets stay on topic, which is the P320 and discharges

You carry the P320 in the chest rig in condition 1?

The point is anyone who knows of the potential risk in carrying the P320 condition 1, still carries it, until the problem is identified and corrected is not the sharpest crayon in the box.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I don’t read it as defending the platform. I read it as being sick and tired of the internet declaring something as fact when in fact it’s about as far from fact as you can get.

This is where I’m at. Reason, logic, and critical thinking are still valid.

I understand the frustration folks have with many of the YouTube videos. Many are complete BS. Unfortunately for Sig, those YouTube videos are not what landed Sig in hot water with the P320. It's the dozens and dozens of documented incidents with the P320 that far exceed all the other service pistols combined. If reason, logic and critical thinking is important, this can't be dismissed.