From an attorneys perspective if someone/some agency, some range chooses to still use/allow the P320 given the uncertainty of the root cause, it’s important to understand the risk and liability those organizations may suffer.

Sig, if they are so confident in the P320, should offer up their attorneys to defend any liability that could be incurred, esp if they are going to sue agency’s for their ban of the Sig product.

On a side note, maybe my Gunsite Certification with the use of the Sig P320 is worth something?
Midway through the class I changed to the P365XL. Could be why I’m still alive today.

quote:

Originally posted by mindustrial:
Not looking good for the 320. Wow, the banned list is growing:

IDPA, Chicago Police Department, Oregon Police Academy, OTOA, National Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Association (NLEFIA), ICE, U.S. Air Force Global Strike Command, Washington State Criminal Justice traing...

Para said it perfectly.

Rumor has it that people carrying the SIG P320 will be required to show proof of vaccination and wear a mask.

The banning of the P320 shall be for two weeks to slow the spread of self firing.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
Rumor has it that people carrying the SIG P320 will be required to show proof of vaccination and wear a mask.

The banning of the P320 shall be for two weeks to slow the spread of self firing.

Stuff like this, and calling people "jackals" and "bottom-feeders" puts you on the other end of the spectrum from guys who swear every 320 is just waiting for you to drop your guard and then it'll shoot your dick off.

Just be careful not to paint everyone in the middle who has concerns and an open mind with that broad hyperbole brush.

quote:

Originally posted by platform:
This article details analysis before the latest unfortunate incident:
...
If I am reading this right, can this also occur on M18 with safety engaged? Or am I wrong?

The manual safety only stops trigger movement. It doesn't stop the striker from dropping.

Here's an interesting verdict form from a 2024 lawsuit against Sig Sauer. A Georgia jury found Sig liable for a defective design in that the trigger lacked a tab safety.


Verdict on 320 by kpkina, on Flickr

Full verdict form
Full article

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:
Why would fingers not get pointed their way? they are the one almost common thread in the incidents.

Ah, but see, there’s actually a lower common denominator to P320’s going off in the holster - the common thread in all these incidents is the P320. I pointed out about a dozen pages ago that we aren’t seeing stuff about bunch of Glocks and S&W duty pistols going off in holsters and nobody had anything to say about it. Of course Sig is going to say it’s Safariland’s fault. Safariland is the duty holster company, everyone uses their stuff.

So let’s say an aftermarket home charger manufacturer manufactures a charger for Teslas, Rivians, and Lucid all using similar designs.
While plugged in and charging and only while plugged in a charging with this particular aftermarket charger Tesla batteries begin to catch fire because there is a slight difference in Teslas electrical designs than Rivian and Lucid do not catch fire.

Is Tesla the problem?????? Or is the charger the problem????

This is where I have difficulty throwing all the blame on Sig. There have been zero documented uncommanded discharges out of a holster (that I have heard of). In the holster is not the only place these this get moved and bashed around.
Simply because a holster design works for other guns does not mean Sig is necessarily at fault.

These guns have become so intricate and complicated a one size/design holster across pistol designs may not be the option anymore.

I think a big part of the problem is looking for “BLAME” instead of a solution so to speak. Maybe it’s a tabbed trigger or wider trigger guard or a heavier trigger, maybe it’s one or more of those combined with poor “gun bucket” holsters. The point is a solution might be found faster if it wasn’t all about obfuscation and blame and more we honestly don’t know what is going on let’s figure it out.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
I think a big part of the problem is looking for “BLAME” instead of a solution so to speak. Maybe it’s a tabbed trigger or wider trigger guard or a heavier trigger, maybe it’s one or more of those combined with poor “gun bucket” holsters. The point is a solution might be found faster if it wasn’t all about obfuscation and blame and more we honestly don’t know what is going on let’s figure it out.

Well said.

Honestly, I have found this thread as a whole to be the most objective source out there in trying to diagnose the root of the problem. We may not know more than anybody else, but I think most here are at least trying.

Apart from the YouTube crap that pops up in my feed I've been following another P320 thread on a local board, and everybody there just seems content to be angry. Sig sucks, your P320 is going to kill you, it doesn't matter why, and if you're not wholly on that bandwagon or even just simply trying to weigh the facts then you're an "apologist".

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Simply because a holster design works for other guns does not mean Sig is necessarily at fault.

The problem with this analogy is that charging lithium batteries is closer to rocket science than wrapping a plastic shell around a gun is. For whatever else the marketing would have anyone believe about any holster, the premise is pretty basic: form soft, heated plastic around gun form, trim to fit so the trigger guard is covered. The rest is basically window washing. You got moleskin liners and various locking mechanisms, but God help me, I look at my 6354RDSO and simply cannot fathom how it's the holster's fault.

Let's turn the logic being touted by the Sig apologists around: If it's the holster's fault, can someone reliably prove it and replicate it?

I'm willing to entertain the idea, but at the end of the day, it's a plastic shell, and what's being shoved into it is a complicated mechanical device which should never discharge because of the fit of a holster. If it's somehow the combination of a Safariland holster and a Sig pistol, when it's all said and done, if no other manufacturers are having this problem, is it really still Safariland's fault? That's assuming this hasn't happened inside any other brand of holster, which also hasn't been ascertained that I've seen.

I also don't mentally operate from a place of assuming that since "the problem" hasn't been identified and replicated reliably that it doesn't exist or can't exist. Just speaking generally, there, not addressed to you. How someone can say there isn't a problem until there has been proven to be a problem and it's quantifiable and reproducible via X method just astounds me. "We don't know, but it sure looks like there's a problem here, and we need to find out" is a more than acceptable statement to make. This is real life, not a laboratory.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

I mean, we had to hear from Hickock45 of all people on this one, so I guess everyone needs to get their piece of it.

His video didn't reveal any earth shattering revelations but with over 8 million subscribers, his opinion will have influence.
I don't fault folks like Hickock45 discussing the topic. After all, it has become the greatest meltdown to hit the firearms community in a lifetime or more. As a gun channel, it would be stupid to ignore it.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Honestly, I have found this thread as a whole to be the most objective source out there in trying to diagnose the root of the problem. We may not know more than anybody else, but I think most here are at least trying.

Apart from the YouTube crap that pops up in my feed I've been following another P320 thread on a local board, and everybody there just seems content to be angry. Sig sucks, your P320 is going to kill you, it doesn't matter why, and if you're not wholly on that bandwagon or even just simply trying to weigh the facts then you're an "apologist".

We were both editing and adding to our posts, and I'm not sure what the exact timeline is as far as who used the term first, but I want to be clear about something. I did use the term "apologist" and I definitely think there are people who this word fits, just as there are those jumping on the bandwagon just for the chance to make a buck or shit on Sig for whichever of many reasons some may have. I don't mentally have you in my "apologist" camp, so please don't take that as my having taken a shot at you. You've been one of the ones discussing this who I think have been among the fair and open-minded.

And again I have tried everything to get my M18 to fire, even the pull the trigger slightly trick and squeeze the front of the slide down, nothing, even with an inserted mag to life the back of the slide.

The trigger is the lightest trigger on my striker fired weapons, but you still have to actually pull it to fire.

I believe my pistol is completely in spec, however I have the safety on before firing every time. I don't even take up any trigger travel before solidly on target and releasing the safety, just as I do with my 1911 and race gun.

My Czechmate has a trigger much lighter than my 1911 and many more times lighter than the M18. There is no way I would carry the CZ cocked and locked.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Honestly, I have found this thread as a whole to be the most objective source out there in trying to diagnose the root of the problem. We may not know more than anybody else, but I think most here are at least trying.

Apart from the YouTube crap that pops up in my feed I've been following another P320 thread on a local board, and everybody there just seems content to be angry. Sig sucks, your P320 is going to kill you, it doesn't matter why, and if you're not wholly on that bandwagon or even just simply trying to weigh the facts then you're an "apologist".

We were both editing and adding to our posts, and I'm not sure what the exact timeline is as far as who used the term first, but I want to be clear about something. I did use the term "apologist" and I definitely think there are people who this word fits, just as there are those jumping on the bandwagon just for the chance to make a buck or shit on Sig for whichever of many reasons some may have. I don't mentally have you in my "apologist" camp, so please don't take that as my having taken a shot at you. You've been one of the ones discussing this who I think have been among the fair and open-minded.

No worries. I posted that before I saw your post, and you are definitely not what I was referring to, either. Honestly, I think just about everybody in this thread has been pretty open-minded. A lot of us are disgusted or pissed at Sig for some of their behavior, and I think that's justified, but the overwhelming theme is a desire to pinpoint the problem and propose a solution, which IMO is the only productive path forward.

quote:

A lot of us are disgusted or pissed at Sig for some of their behavior,

This is where I fall. I honestly don’t have a problem with a product that, once in the wild, shows a problem that needs to be addressed. Shit happens. It’s not the WHAT that bothers me it’s the HOW.

From a marketing standpoint that is the difference between a tainted product and a tainted brand and latter is what kills companies.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:

I believe my pistol is completely in spec,

Got 5 minutes and a pair of calipers?

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
<<snip>>
The manual safety only stops trigger movement. It doesn't stop the striker from dropping.

In that case, since the trigger bar ALWAYS moves with the trigger, and the trigger bar deactivates the striker safety, shouldn't the manual safety being engaged keep it all locked up properly even if the sear gets pushed down by... I don't know, a screwdriver or something???

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
<<snip>>
His video didn't reveal any earth shattering revelations but with over 8 million subscribers, his opinion will have influence.
I don't fault folks like Hickock45 discussing the topic. After all, it has become the greatest meltdown to hit the firearms community in a lifetime or more. As a gun channel, it would be stupid to ignore it.

He did state at the very beginning of the video that he was creating it due to the large number of readers requesting it. Cannot fault him for that, in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

quote:

A lot of us are disgusted or pissed at Sig for some of their behavior,

This is where I fall. I honestly don’t have a problem with a product that, once in the wild, shows a problem that needs to be addressed. Shit happens. It’s not the WHAT that bothers me it’s the HOW.

From a marketing standpoint that is the difference between a tainted product and a tainted brand and latter is what kills companies.

I'm also in this camp. Faulty products happen. It's how a company chooses to deal with it once something is either shown to be defective, or showing signs of, and developing a reputation of being defective, warranted or not, which matters. "It ends today" is going to hurt them, and honestly? It should. It set the tone in a way that was never going to benefit them, even if a P320 never went off in a holster from that day forward. That was a colossal PR fuckup, but more than that, it showed disdain for the customer. Getting adversarial with the people you want to sell products to is a boneheaded move, I don't care how big the company is or how many government contracts they have.

Awareness is a good thing until the issue is properly identified. Trying to obfuscate what is happening, may very well have been the reason that Airmen is dead.

So yea, I'm in the same camp, disgusted AND now pissed.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
...I've been following another P320 thread on a local board, and everybody there just seems content to be angry. Sig sucks, your P320 is going to kill you, it doesn't matter why, and if you're not wholly on that bandwagon or even just simply trying to weigh the facts then you're an "apologist".

Where's the moderator?