quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
I'd sure like to see that holster. Specifically, the inside of it.

Agreed.

I'm not sure about the holster thing. I think there was one in a purse...not sure if there was a holster inside the purse or not.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^ Blackhawk Serpa??

I think it's one of those IMI defense copies, but similar (horrible) design.

I'd sure like to see that holster. Specifically, the inside of it.

Is it correct that all of these incidents involved either guns being holstered or guns holstered?

Has there been a single discharge of a P320 where the trigger wasn't supposedly pulled that didn't involve a holster?

Not that I’ve heard of.

I remember, many moons ago, getting suspended from Glocktalk for a week because I dared to challenge the fanboys that defended the un-supported chambers in early .40 caliber Glocks. It was common to see bulged cases. Every time another one went KA-BOOM, it was always the fault of the ammunition.

The P320, with a short light take-up trigger and lack of a trigger safety, is running closer to the edge of safety, much like Glocks did years ago with their ridiculously generous chambers. I believe this is what we are seeing more than anything else with the P320.

A light single action trigger in a poorly fitted holster, what could go wrong?

Would you carry a 1911 cocked with one in the chamber and no safeties?

Would you carry a classic P-series DA/SA Sig without decocking it first?

I vaguely recall be told to keep my thumb on the hammer while holstering and to stop if I felt the hammer move. There was obviously a concern that something might catch the trigger while holstering my P226 DAK.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sig is even blaming companies like Safariland for these issues. The thing is, Glock has way more market share in L.E. than Sig yet we are not hearing of problems with Glocks anywhere close to those with the P320. It's time for the Sig fanboys to come on in for the big win and admit issuing P320s to the masses without a trigger safety might not be a good idea. Modern striker fired pistols are easy enough to fire as it is without adding 2 additional ways (left and right side pressure) to pull the trigger.

Anybody claiming that ADs/NDs are a new phenomenon only affecting SIG or the P320 series is incorrect and obviously has their own axe to grind.

We all know that there is a long history of AD/ND involving other brands of pistol, under various circumstances including re-holstering. There are extensive examples findable on Google going back many years.

If some people want to jump on a bandwagon, ride the wave for views and clicks (often in videos with ads which contribute little or nothing new to the discourse), or ignore all the other cases, or try to put more emphasis on one particular brand or model, that's their personal choice -- but it's opinion and not scientific or meaningful.

But it is what it is.

I don't think you fully comprehend the scope and implications of the issue.

Best estimates indicate that over one million P320s have been manufactured. The P320 is in use by over 1000 law enforcement agencies in the United States alone. The pistol is in use by US armed forces, and hundreds of thousands of these pistols are in civilian hands.

In 2017, the P320 was discovered to not be fully drop-safe. This issue was not a matter of speculation, but rather, a real problem, which SIG addressed by making changes to the trigger and other fire control components.

Because of the drop-safe issue, shooter confidence in the P320 was degraded, and it was in this environment that this latest controversy emerged. Shooter confidence in their firearm is quite important. Beyond the individual owners of the P320, the administrators of law enforcement agencies have an obligation to their officers and, by extension, to the public they serve. A loss of confidence in the viability of the pistol in officer's holsters is a serious thing.

Given all the above, the question of what is really happening with the P320 and why, is one which really needs to be answered. Those who capitalize on this current issue on social media is a matter so far removed from the P320 (possible) UDs as to be insignificant.

Saying that other brands and models of handguns are involved in ADs and NDs is obvious and therefore needless and doesn't address the breadth of the P320 issue.

With regard to accidental and negligent discharges, I and others have long pointed out that the P320 is missing a vital safety component: a safety blade (or tab) on the trigger face. Taking this into account- even if there are no actual problems with the post-2017 iteration of the P320 FCG- accidental firing of the P320 cannot be flippantly dismissed as "it happens."

I realize you like your new P320, but my advice is to read and listen and get a much better understanding of what's at stake and why these questions are being asked and why these concerns are being expressed by people who have nothing but the best of intentions and who are not concerned with capitalizing on the current problems of and with the P320.

quote:

Originally posted by landowner:
Anybody claiming that ADs/NDs are a new phenomenon only affecting SIG or the P320 series is incorrect and obviously has their own axe to grind.

Where exactly did anyone say it was a new phenomenon?

quote:

Originally posted by landowner:
We all know that there is a long history of AD/ND involving other brands of pistol, under various circumstances including re-holstering. There are extensive examples findable on Google going back many years.

No kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by landowner:
If some people want to jump on a bandwagon, ride the wave for views and clicks (often in videos with ads which contribute little or nothing new to the discourse), or ignore all the other cases, or try to put more emphasis on one particular brand or model, that's their personal choice -- but it's opinion and not scientific or meaningful.

I'm sure you know all about views and clicks.

It seems reasonable to be confident that post-2017 P320s pass drop-tests. It also seems reasonable to conclude that a P320 with a chambered round would not fire autonomously while locked in a safe. It's difficult to fathom a mechanism for causing a current P320 to fire without operating the trigger.

So, perhaps the main outstanding question is this:

- What exactly is the mechanic that caused reported AD/ND during re-holstering? It's not magic. There must be some mechanic, such as the holster or something else pulling the trigger.

Obviously, at the risk of stating the obvious, and as I've previously stated in this thread, it's always appropriate to scrutinize safety for all firearms.

quote:

There must be some mechanic, such as the holster or something else pulling the trigger.

That is the mechanic. Accidental/incidental activation of a trigger that is too easy to activate due to lack of a mechanical safety. As I and others have said for a while, it would be like carrying/handling a DA/SA pistol in SA mode. An incident waiting to happen.

I think the confusion arises due to the existence of TWO possible failure modes:

1. Accidental trigger activation.

2. Uncommanded discharge due to a mechanical fault in the FCG. This one is not confirmed, and no-one is saying otherwise.

It's important to keep these separate issues separate if we're going to resolve anything.

As much as I hate trigger safeties, I think Sig needs to introduce one and do armorer-level optional replacements. I can swap out a P320 trigger in a couple minutes, it's simple.

Not an admission of guilt, but an enhancement to discourage N.D.'s by people with poor trigger discipline. Colt upgrading the Series-70 to Series-80 was an enhancement, and did not result in liability for the original design not being fully drop-safe.

They already did the previous upgrade, so it's not a new thing.

^Couldn't agree more. I hate trigger tabs as well, but in this case I think it's necessary (along with a slide safety, which for goshsakes, already exists as well).

Looks like I'll be sticking with my heavy, old school P229.

quote:

Originally posted by landowner:
Anybody claiming that ADs/NDs are a new phenomenon only affecting SIG or the P320 series is incorrect and obviously has their own axe to grind.

We all know that there is a long history of AD/ND involving other brands of pistol, under various circumstances including re-holstering. There are extensive examples findable on Google going back many years.

If some people want to jump on a bandwagon, ride the wave for views and clicks (often in videos with ads which contribute little or nothing new to the discourse), or ignore all the other cases, or try to put more emphasis on one particular brand or model, that's their personal choice -- but it's opinion and not scientific or meaningful.

But it is what it is.

Guns firing while drawing and holstering is not new. What’s bothersome with the P320 is guns seemingly going off already seated and secured in the holster. Several of those appear to caught on camera. An Officer exiting his squad car, a gun fires and he says “WTF was that?” Officers sitting in a golf cart in a train station. Bang! WTF was that?

^Excellent points. Before those reports, I believed the discharges were simply trigger activation. Now I think there's enough evidence to suspect a second failure mode.

Sig of course is still saying foreign object intrusion and improper holster design. I'm not betting my life on any of that.

I would like to know what holsters are in use during those "2nd failure" types as we've seen multiple holster designed that leave the trigger guard open for anything to press the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^ Blackhawk Serpa??

I think it's one of those IMI defense copies, but similar (horrible) design.

I'd sure like to see that holster. Specifically, the inside of it.

Is it correct that all of these incidents involved either guns being holstered or guns holstered?

Has there been a single discharge of a P320 where the trigger wasn't supposedly pulled that didn't involve a holster?

Most P320 ND's that I'm aware of involved a holster.

However, there was one where a P320 was wrapped in a towel and placed in a gym bag.
Another was not holstered and placed in a purse not designed for concealed carry.

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt 127:

Guns firing while drawing and holstering is not new. What’s bothersome with the P320 is guns seemingly going off already seated and secured in the holster. Several of those appear to caught on camera. An Officer exiting his squad car, a gun fires and he says “WTF was that?” Officers sitting in a golf cart in a train station. Bang! WTF was that?

In the first instance Sig blamed a seatbelt.
In the golf cart incident, there was no seatbelt.
I don’t think Sig commented on it, but the agency found the officer not responsible as he braced both hands on the steering wheel while existing the cart. The agency replaced all their Sigs.

Vancouver PD has documented several P320’s with dead triggers and strikers releasing and UDs from the gun being shaken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxD2dLPagDw

Washington State Sig p320 report.
https://cjtc.wa.gov/sites/defa...0February%202025.pdf

Additionally, six military installation un-commanded discharges involving Sig Sauer P320, M17, and
M18 platforms have occurred since 2021. The most significant event was documented at an
Okinawa military base because of their impeccable maintenance and training records. In addition,
the clear and convincing video capturing the event (only mentioned in final report) which absolved
the security guard of negligence.

As you can see from the report, not all video evidence will be made publicly available.

Note that Vancouver PD incident was a Safariland holster, like some other reported incidents/observations:
- Glock: https://pistol-forum.com/showt...ariland-duty-holster
- SIG: https://www.reddit.com/r/SigSa...scharge_replication/

Citing the WA state report: "Sig Sauer’s representative was clear and convincing that the P320, M17, and M18 cannot fire without the trigger being pulled and the WSCJTC can provide no evidence to the contrary."

(WA state banned semi-auto weapons that some folks there define as "assault weapons" as well as mags with >10 round capacity, etc.)

Nevertheless, it's important to scrutinize every detail in the examples that are available.