So here's the deal. I've been shooting for 30 years, actively shooting with weekly range visits and monthly matches for about 8 years. I only started recently shooting paper, working on Bill Drills, Dot Torture drills, etc. And I've come to the conclusion that I don't shoot "right" according to most things I've read (and actually according to what I teach new shooters. I teach sharp focus on the front sight, target is out of focus, rear sight slightly out of focus. But I don't think I have been actually shooting that way, at least in matches or when doing drills.

Something intrigued me about what Travis Haley says here, at 10 minutes 53 seconds.
https://youtu.be/Zi5eZqc9H7I?t=10m53s

The "hard threat focus" he discusses is apparently what I've been doing, or at least something closer to that than "clear front sight." I have weird eyes. I wasn't diagnosed with a lazy eye as a kid because I memorized the eye chart because I didn't want to fail the test. My right eye didn't develop properly. It's kinda like poorly developed film or a digital image without half of the pixels. I'm strongly left-eye dominant but right handed, so I shoot long guns lefty and handguns righty, using my left eye. I am what most people would call competent or moderate/advanced handgun shooter; I usually place top 15 percent in local matches and I have won a few. Not state or national level, so take that for what it's worth. But I feel like I'm reasonably competent.

In shooting drills on paper recently, I've become aware that when I really try to get a sharp focus on the front sight, two things happen:
1. It slows me way down; and
2. I see two targets and have to kind of pick the correct one. This happens whether at 3 yards or 20.

I have never really seriously evaluated what I'm actually doing when I shoot before. I just shoot and the plates fall. I have had moments in matches where I have tried to pay attention to where my focus is and have had mixed results.

Shooting a red dot has probably concealed this issue because with a dot you have a "target focus" and the dot just hovers over it. You're not focusing hard on the dot/optic. At least I'm not. This works okay for me; here's a recent video for reference if needed.

https://youtu.be/l5NBB0yyFtU

However, I've been shooting iron sights the past couple of weeks and I've learned that it's rare for me to actually have a sharp, clear, front sight focus. I can see the sights reasonably well aligned with each other and with the target, but they are somewhat blurry; my actual focus is on the target or somewhere between the front sight and the target.

My question is... at this point in my life should I actually put in the effort to try to learn to shoot with a sharp, clear, front sight focus? Or is the result what matters? If I can hit targets reasonably quickly does it matter where my focus is? Should I perfect and continue refining and progressing using my natural instinctual sighting method or should I learn to "do it the right way"?

As Travis says in his video above, in an actual fight your focus will likely be on the threat. I imagine it's somewhat controversial to contradict 100 years of handgun fighting canon by suggesting that you can shoot quickly and accurately without a sharp front sight picture. Maybe this doesn't matter, but I am pretty curious about it.

I may get chastised for this, but what happens when you close your right eye?

I am right-handed and right eye dominant. When I try to shoot both eyes open, I have a similar, but slightly different problem than you describe. I can get a sharp front sight focus, but I get a strong double image on the rear sight with a small gap between the two images. Strong enough that it confuses which is the correct gap between rear posts. Because of that, I've adopted the tactic of closing my left eye to take a shot, then opening it again immediately after. I don't think I do that on really close targets (see what you need to see, as Brian Enos might say), but I know I do it on headshots, partials, and distance targets in USPSA. I've tried training my brain by occluding the left eye image with tape or chapstick over the left eye, but that just succeeded in giving me a splitting headache by the end of a match.

Granted, I'm no GM, but I'd like to think that my lack of advancement has more to do with my lack of practice than my eye habits.

I ll post more later tonight. But in the mean time, don’t be fooled by people that will tell you that you’ll do this or that in a fight. You will do exactly as you are trained. If you are poorly trained, that’s what to expect. All of the guys that shoot people for a living these days run a front sight focus.

More later after I get off work.

I pretty much have to close my right eye for precise, tight-group target shooting, as you point out. However, for speed shooting this isn't practicable. I can't even close and open my right eye fast enough to match the shots.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I ll post more later tonight. But in the mean time, don’t be fooled by people that will tell you that you’ll do this or that in a fight. You will do exactly as you are trained. If you are poorly trained, that’s what to expect. All of the guys that shoot people for a living these days run a front sight focus.

More later after I get off work.

Thanks. I was hoping you'd chime in and I look forward to your feedback.

Is age related presbyopia rearing its ugly head? Front sight focus is nearly impossible for me unless I tilt my head way back to get into the bifocal region or wear special Rx shooting glasses (won't have those in a gunfight).

I have trouble with it, and some days find closing my right eye improves. I'm left dom. Othertimes I think its just I need more training and I'll have a perfect 300

The eyes are funny and very complex things. If what you are doing is working, I'd hesitate to change it. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in doctrine and mantra that we disregard results.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:
Is age related presbyopia rearing its ugly head? Front sight focus is nearly impossible for me unless I tilt my head way back to get into the bifocal region or wear special Rx shooting glasses (won't have those in a gunfight).

I don't think so. I have started to wear prescription lenses but I have to remove them to see very close things clearly, which is a recent development. But I can focus on my front sight with or without prescription lenses. I just have a hard time telling my brain to actually do it when I'm shooting.

quote:

I teach sharp focus on the front sight, target is out of focus, rear sight slightly out of focus.

You are correct sir, 100%. And I'll add that the notion that 1/4 second "Split times" to be successful in a defensive shooting is less than accurate. Speed is fine, but accuracy is final and Jljones is right on the mark, when he says, you'll fight as you train. Best Regards, Rod

quote:

Originally posted by 1KPerDay: I don't think so. I have started to wear prescription lenses but I have to remove them to see very close things clearly, which is a recent development. But I can focus on my front sight with or without prescription lenses. I just have a hard time telling my brain to actually do it when I'm shooting.

Hard to know what another person is seeing, but that sure sounds like what my eyes did as I got into middle age.

I came home last night and typed out a long, drawn out post on the fallacies of point shooting and realized that very little of what I posted answered your questions.

I'll start out commenting that if you have unknown vision problems, or even known, you should probably consult with your eye guy to figure out corrective measures to fit your needs.

To the question at hand. Do you shoot from a process stand point, or a results standpoint. The process standpoint is a method of training to where I focus on nothing more than the process of firing the pistol. The results driven end is my techniques and tactics are driven to results only. The cool thing about being process oriented, is that the results take care of themselves. More in just a minute.

As to sights and sighting. Sights are a tertiary concern of mine. The first order is clean, clean trigger control. The secondary is immaculate follow through. Then come in the sights. My trigger control being really clean and great follow through are directly linked to what I see, and what I need to see for a given shot.

The sights do three jobs for me.

1-they aim the pistol
2-they give me feed back on my trigger control
3-they tell me how fast I can shoot.

The first is a given. Any grade school CCW course is going to talk about aiming the pistol. It is an obvious, and the job that everyone knows that the sights do. The feedback on my trigger control is the most important to me. If I break a clean shot, I watch the front sight lift by focusing on the front sight. That is my visual verification that the round went where the front sight was. At that point, if necessary, I can move on to the next target if my work is done. I have no need to look at the target to see my work. The sights just told me everything I needed to know about it. Calling the shot, reading the sights are crucial to me. And lastly, I set up my body alignment/grip to allow the sights to return in a repeatable fashion, so in a continuity of fire situation, as soon as the sights return, I'm sending the next one. The sights returning is my cue to reapply trigger control. So, the sights do a lot for me, and I can imagine in speed shooting not looking at them.

In PT driven marksmanship, and PT driven force on force, I have noticed that the better that the guys are at driving the sights, the better their performance under stress. This is especially true when you get to moving and the target is moving. There are also other metrics of actual shootings that I can point to where guys that worship their sights fire 6-8 rounds with a handgun while under pressure and score 6-8 hits respectively. It is where it is at, and like I said, I just can't imagine not using the sights also because it gives me one method to train for shots at 3 yards, and 30 yards.

Now, one thing I will tell you is that not all "hard front sight" focus is the same, and a perfect sight alignment is not necessary. Sometimes when dudes feel like it is way too slow to use the sights, they are not applying the proper amount of front sight, or they are trying way too hard to apply ALIGNMENT and not FOCUS. What I mean by alignment is that the front sight is properly centered in the rear, and that the front and rear sight is equal height. Equal height/equal light. And this even lends itself to snatching at the trigger because the brain is trying to let loose that perfect shot. Perfect doesn't ever exist in matches and gun fights. So, there is good enough. At speed, and UNLESS it is a real precision shot at 25-50 yards, I operate off of a "good enough" mantra. My trigger control is flawless and where I spend a lot of my training time. My follow through is really good. My sight alignment/sight focus is "good enough" At 25 yards, I am closing one eye, obtaining that hard Camp Perry sight focus and rocking it. Paying attention to the whole thing in real time. At three yards, I see the front sight with both eyes open. It is sorta/kinda maybe centered in the rear but the front is clear. When the sight comes to a stop, I send the round. When the sights come back, I send the round. And so on. I'm not looking for perfection in aiming at 3-5-7-10 yards because there is no need. Even if I run the sights all the way over in the rear notch at 10 yards, I'm still going to hit within an inch of my POA. Seeing my front sight, and watching it lift and return from SOMEWHERE in the rear is much more important than precise alignment.

At 7 yards, I get about 30-40 percent of that hard Camp Perry sight picture, and I start sending rounds based upon watching the sights track. So, I am basically shooting at the speed that I can process information, and the gun can cycle. I am vested in the process of shooting the pistol, and the results take care of themselves.

Hope that this helps.

Jones

quote:

(snipped good info)

Thanks a bunch. I'll work on it.

My 2 cents is a big it depends- what you are fundamentally teaching is correct. Regarding your personal eye issues:
The first question is you goal combat accuracy ( that elusive balance of accuracy and speed)
Or precision shot placement in and of itself?
Once you pick ONE of the above then you can focus ( pun intended) on refining techniques
For example someone who can do a good balance of speed and accuracy for defensive purposes even if technique is not textbook you are still fine.
On the other hand true precision pistol marksmanship is a different story
While there are rare exceptions, most top level bullseye competitors would not score well in a uspsa match, while even some very skilled uspsa shooters can’t shoot bullseye for squat.
Decide which you want it is very hard to do both well.

quote:

Originally posted by 1KPerDay:
So here's the deal. I've been shooting for 30 years, actively shooting with weekly range visits and monthly matches for about 8 years. I only started recently shooting paper, working on Bill Drills, Dot Torture drills, etc. And I've come to the conclusion that I don't shoot "right" according to most things I've read (and actually according to what I teach new shooters. I teach sharp focus on the front sight, target is out of focus, rear sight slightly out of focus. But I don't think I have been actually shooting that way, at least in matches or when doing drills.

Something intrigued me about what Travis Haley says here, at 10 minutes 53 seconds.
https://youtu.be/Zi5eZqc9H7I?t=10m53s

The "hard threat focus" he discusses is apparently what I've been doing, or at least something closer to that than "clear front sight." I have weird eyes. I wasn't diagnosed with a lazy eye as a kid because I memorized the eye chart because I didn't want to fail the test. My right eye didn't develop properly. It's kinda like poorly developed film or a digital image without half of the pixels. I'm strongly left-eye dominant but right handed, so I shoot long guns lefty and handguns righty, using my left eye. I am what most people would call competent or moderate/advanced handgun shooter; I usually place top 15 percent in local matches and I have won a few. Not state or national level, so take that for what it's worth. But I feel like I'm reasonably competent.

In shooting drills on paper recently, I've become aware that when I really try to get a sharp focus on the front sight, two things happen:
1. It slows me way down; and
2. I see two targets and have to kind of pick the correct one. This happens whether at 3 yards or 20.

I have never really seriously evaluated what I'm actually doing when I shoot before. I just shoot and the plates fall. I have had moments in matches where I have tried to pay attention to where my focus is and have had mixed results.

Shooting a red dot has probably concealed this issue because with a dot you have a "target focus" and the dot just hovers over it. You're not focusing hard on the dot/optic. At least I'm not. This works okay for me; here's a recent video for reference if needed.

https://youtu.be/l5NBB0yyFtU

However, I've been shooting iron sights the past couple of weeks and I've learned that it's rare for me to actually have a sharp, clear, front sight focus. I can see the sights reasonably well aligned with each other and with the target, but they are somewhat blurry; my actual focus is on the target or somewhere between the front sight and the target.

My question is... at this point in my life should I actually put in the effort to try to learn to shoot with a sharp, clear, front sight focus? Or is the result what matters? If I can hit targets reasonably quickly does it matter where my focus is? Should I perfect and continue refining and progressing using my natural instinctual sighting method or should I learn to "do it the right way"?

As Travis says in his video above, in an actual fight your focus will likely be on the threat. I imagine it's somewhat controversial to contradict 100 years of handgun fighting canon by suggesting that you can shoot quickly and accurately without a sharp front sight picture. Maybe this doesn't matter, but I am pretty curious about it.

IMO Front Sight Focus is BUNK. Because you will have a strong tendency to "chase" the sight under recoil and that WILL slow you down as you'll have to reacquire the target point. BTW, I am far sighted so Front Sight Focus isn't going to happen for me. So I am all about Target Focused shooting and during a string as soon as the fuzzy white dot of the front sight appears in line with the target I release the trigger. While I may not shoot tiny little groups if you put 12 rounds into a 5 inch group at 30 feet with a 0.3 second split time you are shooting well enough to defend yourself.

For those on the Facespace. I just ran across this published today by Jeff Gonzales.



All I can say is that the guys that "don't have time" for fundamentals, will never be able to beat me at speed and accuracy. Once you get past 3 yards, the sights matter in speed shooting. Five inch groups are misses at 10 yards once the target starts moving, and the shooter starts moving. That five inch group, becomes a 10 inch spray and pray once the heart rate goes up.