quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
Practice until you can consistently hit in the 10 ring at 50 yards.

Been there, done that, and I can't consistently do it. But since you must have such skills down pat, please show us how you drill the 10 ring on targets at 50 yards. And I mean a B-6 target, not a 1,000-yard F-class target. Better yet, post some video of how you cleaned up at the Bianchi cup.

Some of us actively compete and have done so for years. Pistols, shotguns, carbines, rifles. Tens upon tens of thousands of rounds. Slowly improving the processes of a controlled trigger press, maintaining sight alignment, follow through, and recoil management. Oh yeah, and dry fire, after dry fire, after dry fire.

Mikaela Shiffrin isn't winning world cup ski races with beginner rental skis.
Kyle Bush doesn't race with a stock Toyota Corolla.
Serena Williams doesn't play with her mother's old small-head wood racket.

Time after time, event after event, I've seen how much better a person performs with quality tools.

If your rant is one due to yet another year ending and time marching forward, I hope your bitterness doesn't carry into 2018. Carry on, caption oblivious.

Well said. And some of us would like to make grandmaster. That doesn't mean we are not capable of shooting defensively. And if you're going to make a post like that (OP) please put up a video of you shooting at 50 yards with a bone stock pistol.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
OP is probably still passed out on the floor, with 6 empty bottles of wine coolers.

Nah. Kentucky, man, not California. So I'm guessin' Beam

Nah... He just found a muddy river with no bottom.

I understand what you're saying Fred, and I'm all for practice. I got paid to practice to "save a life" for lots of years. Shot indoors, outdoors, daytime, low light, nighttime in ambient light, with flashlights, flashing emergency lights, in rain, snow, thunder, lightning, after P.T. to get hearts racing,etc. Practiced a lot on my own, trained at Gunsite, competed,etc. I did maintain copies of duty guns, and guns that I just enjoyed owning and shooting. I'm pretty bummed to have admit that I still can't consistently hit in the 10-ring at 50-yards on demand, especially under stress.

I'm retired now, and my shooting is just an enjoyable leisure time activity. In fact,I was out at the range this afternoon. Daylight,taking my time, only one on the main range, temperatures in the 50s,etc. That's about as demanding as my shooting gets now days. In any case, gainfully employed or in retirement, I find I do better with good triggers, good sights, etc. whether factory or custom.


I know we enjoy going on and on, discussing and debating equipment. I sure do. If we didn't, I don't think these enthusiast forums would exist

quote:

Originally posted by SigLaw:
50 yards? Are you kidding? I cannot see a target at 50 yards let alone hit the 10 ring. 50 feet, sure. 50 yards, not so much.

Ya' 50 yds and a 10 ring? What are you drinkin' Freddie?

Does the Capt. outfit come with a cape?

Mine came with a mask and boots.....

And regarding what the OP wrote.......well duh

But if someone wants to discuss kit (yup I said kit < insert raspberry here) so what, at least their not talking sports....crochet....nail polish.....how to make their hoody look more ominous

For me I stick mostly to glocks and ARs mainly due to having a shit ton of magazines and ammo for them but I thoroughly enjoy other firearms especially S&W revolvers, 1911s, BHPs, H&Ks......etc etc

I shoot better than the average bear but could and should practice more......

And yes the constant talk of "gear" on some forums and magazines is funny but this forum is more for people who appreciate good discussion and fellowship

In other words ....
Chill out and Happy New Year!

More than that, I question the validity of that advice depending on what the goal of the individual shooter is

If your goal is to defend yourself and your family this skill, beyond the improvement in marksmanship it hopefully entails at much, much closer distances, is damn near worthless

In fact, I’m hard pressed to think of many self defense situations where a 50yard engagement distance is remotely practical. Many courts would certainly consider the distance of the encounter when ruling whether or not the victim was truly in fear of imminent harm or danger

If self defense is your goal, you are much better served getting good st getting many rounds quickly on target from a number of positions, from s holster, and at distances under 20 yards, realistically under 10

To the end that the accuracy attained from being able to continuously hit a 50 hard target aids that, great. But chances are the time spent getting to that point can be spent much better in different places

quote:

Originally posted by Cobra21:

quote:

Originally posted by SigLaw:
50 yards? Are you kidding? I cannot see a target at 50 yards let alone hit the 10 ring. 50 feet, sure. 50 yards, not so much.

Ya' 50 yds and a 10 ring? What are you drinkin' Freddie?

quote:

Originally posted by Kevbo:
To the end that the accuracy attained from being able to continuously hit a 50 hard target aids that, great. But chances are the time spent getting to that point can be spent much better in different places

We shoot the US Army Alternate Pistol Qualification Course from 50 meters instead of 25 from time to time. It is fun and to be frank, if a guy can shoot well at 10 or 15 meters, he can do OK at 50.

There's no magic in extending the range and knowing where one's pistol hits at 50 isn't a disadvantage, it's a sheer plus.

Groups sizes don't get smaller, tho...

Sure, I absolutely push my distance on occasion too, for pretty much the same reason as you, because it’s fun to try, and I surprise myself some

It can also be a good diagnostic tool as well, because errors or flaws in marksmanship are more obvious at greater distances

But that’s not what the good captain suggested. He suggested as the ultimate indicator you had obtained skill necessary. I personally have eaten the lunch of shooters that were more focused on accuracy, particularly at distance, on more defensive minded drills.

The old axiom that you will get good at that which you practice is true here

If you have the time to master 50 yard bullseye shooting congruently with mastering skills essential in practical self defense shooting, have at it...most of us, though, don’t. We aren’t that level of savant or don’t have that kind of time

I get what the Op is saying

Stop trying to solve software problems with better hardware

And many, many people could stand to spend the $500 they will spend on the next new thing on some training

As with all, things though, there is a balance

I see no reason to shoot equipment that can be markedly improved for what amounts to little investment (less than $500? But again, what is a big investment to me might be small to you, or vice versa. And I’m not going to tell people how to spend their money)

So people that put apex kits in M&ps, or grayguns kits in sigs, or the various improvements to various Glock triggers...that’s a small investment for a big improvement

But chances are the baseline improvements to skill gained from training with a more refined tool will translate to other platforms

I get the criticisms of the crappy shooters who buy $3000 1911s and think they are suddenly rob leatham

But in my experience that’s not a lot of people

Plus, honestly, it’s their money...and if they’ve got it to spend, and want to, who am I to tell them otherwise?

quote:

Originally posted by 3/4Flap:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevbo:
To the end that the accuracy attained from being able to continuously hit a 50 hard target aids that, great. But chances are the time spent getting to that point can be spent much better in different places

We shoot the US Army Alternate Pistol Qualification Course from 50 meters instead of 25 from time to time. It is fun and to be frank, if a guy can shoot well at 10 or 15 meters, he can do OK at 50.

There's no magic in extending the range and knowing where one's pistol hits at 50 isn't a disadvantage, it's a sheer plus.

Groups sizes don't get smaller, tho...

quote:

Originally posted by EasyFire:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
OP is probably still passed out on the floor, with 6 empty bottles of wine coolers.

Nah. Kentucky, man, not California. So I'm guessin' Beam

Nah... He just found a muddy river with no bottom.

Dunno what that means.

I dont think this is going the way the OP thought it would.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
I’m already the best shooter out of everyone I know with both stock and custom guns. I’m a firm believer that a good shooter is a good shooter regardless of what gun he uses. With that said shooting a pistol at 50 yards is fucking retarted and a waste of time. Get good at shooting at 10 yards with a accurate and consistent pace.

Pretty close to my ideal. Be able to shoot to CoM from nearly contact distance to 30 feet. Left handed, right-handed, two-handed. And if the range allows for unusual firing positions then also from prone, kneeling, on the back, around the hip. In self-defense there are many complex situations.

quote:

Originally posted by EasyFire:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
OP is probably still passed out on the floor, with 6 empty bottles of wine coolers.

Nah. Kentucky, man, not California. So I'm guessin' Beam

Nah... He just found a muddy river with no bottom.

I was thinking some Boone's Farm,

3 page conversation that is somewhat productive,

thinking it is a good thing

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
For all of you debating trigger pull weights, customized pistols, barrel weights, RMX sights, etc, I have news for you. Get a good quality service pistol with NO "enhancements," and learn to shoot it.....

I don't mean to be offensive, but, IMHO, I see far too much focus on equipment and far too little on basics. Practice to save a life, not to make "Grand Master." Chess champions don't get mugged. And operators ain't on gun forums

There's more to shooting than just self-defense. Some do it for recreation as well. Some of us shoot our stock pistols just fine and are pretty good with the "basics" but still want competition or range toys.

My stock mustang gets me to wherever I need...however, I have promised my wife that I would drive a whole lot better if we could spring for the Shelby GT-350R....pinky promise

Similarly, I could protect the house better with the Sig P210 American...9 rounds of laser-like 9mm wielded like Excalibur himself! (she's not buying this story...)

Troll

Only accurate is good. One requirement for accurate is the critical need for fit. Fit has many parts. Some pistols must be modified in order for trigger finger to be placed in a good way on the trigger. P320 does that one crude, expensive way. M&P and many others provide changes in "pull" less expensively. Even 1911 pistols may need change to the length of trigger and/or changes to grips.
Once trigger finger placement is dealt with, required force needs to be considered. What is desirable differs from person to person.

Several more factors enter fit. If pistol does not fit the user, the user is disadvantaged.

Of course, one could hand a Berreta P9 to a 5 foot woman with very small hands, a case of ammo, and lots of coaching. Eventually, she might qualify, but she will not want anything to do with pistols. Or fit a pistol to her and she will be effective with much less practice.

. . . and the standard Bullseye course of fire is 10 rounds slow fire at 50 yards, five rounds twice in 20 seconds at 25 yards, and five rounds twice in 10 seconds at 25 yards. . . and one can have a bullseye pistol that fits for under $1000.

IDPA pistol can be had for under $500 with few enhancements beyond what comes in the box in order to fit.

No cure for stupid.

I understand what Fredward is saying. I said something similar in a photography thread. He isn't saying you shouldn't modify a firearm. He's saying that too many people get into buying and acquiring stuff instead of learning to get good with what they have. Developing a skill is difficult compared to spending money (assuming you have some). It's easy to fall into the whole consume, consume, thought process.

I think the assumption is, for him and you guys, is that you HAVE developed decent skills, so it's okay to trick out your stuff. I think he's referring to people that can't hit a barn but want to brag about all the cool gun stuff they have. I feel the same way listening to people brag about their top-of-the-line photo equipment but don't know how to take decent or interesting photos. But pro-photographers have developed the necessary skills to back up and justify their need for expensive and specialized equipment, as opposed to the hapless newbie.

I don't agree with his "practice to save a life" attitude. Some people don't use firearms for self-defense or saving lives. Some are in it just for the sport, so I see practicing to make "Grand Master" totally legit.

That’s all understandable but I think the bigger thing is, why even concern yourself with what other people are doing with their money and property? They can paint their guns pink with a spray paint can for all many of us care. Not our pistols or money.

I see the “I just got X, what do I need to buy for it?” threads. Obviously they haven’t even shot it stock yet and before the expend a single round, their modding it with x, y, z. Cool, I just don’t respond and move on. Further they are supporting a firearm industry with their purchases that helps us all direct or indirect. Sales are slow. If they want to tassel up their pistol, AR, shotgun, whatever, have at it. It’s not my money.

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:
That’s all understandable but I think the bigger thing is, why even concern yourself with what other people are doing with their money and property? They can paint their guns pink with a spray paint can for all many of us care. Not our pistols or money.

I see the “I just got X, what do I need to buy for it?” threads. Obviously they haven’t even shot it stock yet and before the expend a single round, their modding it with x, y, z. Cool, I just don’t respond and move on. Further they are supporting a firearm industry with their purchases that helps us all direct or indirect. Sales are slow. If they want to tassel up their pistol, AR, shotgun, whatever, have at it. It’s not my money.

The point clearly lost in some folks.

-Giving advice when asked is always welcomed.
-Giving advice without being asked is often unwelcomed.
-Pontificating when asked is 10x times worse.
-Pontificating without being asked is 100x times worse.

Guess where the OP falls?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 12131,

I'd like pink ivory grips for my Beretta 70. Exaggerated left grip thumbrest and medium palm swells.

I'll provide the blanks. Know anybody that can produce them in the US?

I need to bring forth my feminine side.