I started my cop career with a 1911. And, shot IPSC with the same gun. I was very good with it. The safety stayed on until my finger went towards the trigger to shoot. If I dropped it, if someone wrested it out of my holster or my hand, the safety would still be on. I carried it in a custom Milt Sparks duty holster and, the thumb strap was under the hammer.

Then we went to Glocks. Because they were “safer” than cocked and locked 1911’s.

I always treated a Glock like a snake that was about to strike. I looked at them as cocked and unlocked 1911’s.

But, since no one could see it was cocked, they were just fine.

As an aside, I occasionally had some well meaning person walk up..

“Say Officer! You know the hammers back on that thing?”

(I’d look down, shocked…)

“Holy Shit! It did it again! Would you give me a hand getting that thing down? Last time I tried it, that son of a bitch went off on me…”

“Uh. No no no. That’s fine. I just wanted to let you know!…”

Anyway. I never carried a Single action with safety appendix. For the few times I carried my Detonics, just shoved in my waistband, I carried it hammer down. (If you look at the design of the Detonics, that was the idea. The rear sight was moved up and, there’s a flat on top of the slide.)

And now…five pound triggers. With no grip or thumb safety, with no exposed hammer are considered optimal for duty carry.

No. No they are not.

We had a couple Officers that would flip the safety off as soon as they drew. For building searches, approaching a weapon call. One was climbing around in an attic. Searching for a suspect. And, fell through the ceiling. His hands clenched. Within the range of grasping, clawing fingers, trying to catch anything to break his fall, was the trigger of his 1911. And, he promptly sailed a 230 grain iron man right past his head.

A few others tripped and fell, firing the gun.

All that finger wagging “this is my safety!” Shit works. Until you are falling through a roof or, trying not to eat the pavement.

quote:

I carry/handle a gun in the real world a lot more than I actually shoot it. IMO just based on frequency/probability the scale should tip towards safety over maximum shootability, especially when the system is still quite shootable.

I’ve said this for years. At least as far as I personally am concerned.

Why would anyone even consider carrying cocked and UNlocked? Cocked and locked is what they were designed for. And taking the safety off when needed is simple enough.

You all know that both the 1911 and the BHP were designed to be caried in condition three, right? The whole locked and cocked thing didn't start until Jeff Cooper started his instructing in the 1950's.

Link

DESCRIPTION
OF THE
AUTOMATIC PISTOL, CALIBER .45
MODEL OF 1911
WITH RULES FOR MANAGEMENT, MEMORANDA OF TRAJECTORY, AND DESCRIPTION OF AMMUNITION
(SIX PLATES)
APRIL 1, 1912
REVISED FEBRUARY 14, 1914

Page 13
Methods of Operation

If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots, draw back the slide (3), insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel (2), allow the slide (3) to close, then lock the slide
(3) and the cocked hammer (23) by pressing the safety lock (36) upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide (3) and hammer
(23) being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (36) (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position.

Seems to say cocked and locked is safe to carry all the way back in 1912 or 1914.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
You all know that both the 1911 and the BHP were designed to be caried in condition three, right? The whole locked and cocked thing didn't start until Jeff Cooper started his instructing in the 1950's.

I do actually think I read or heard that somewhere. The safety was meant for after shooting where there was still a round chambered or something but the soldier was moving/still engaged but not actively shooting or some such. I could be mistaken but in the cobwebs I feel like I heard this somewhere.

Great discussion. I've been carrying a Hi Power clone for synagogue security for some months, and it's always in condition one. One of the reasons is that it sports a trigger pull of around 4.5 lbs. Were it as high as 7 pounds, I'd be tempted to put it in the same category as my striker-fired pistols (P365 XL and Bodyguard 2.0). Both of those were deliberately bought with thumb safeties, but the safeties are neither as accessible, positive, nor intuitive as on a 1911 or BHP. With those guns I use the safety for administrative handling, which is to say that whenever the gun is being holstered or put in the safe, the safety is on. But once it is safely in a belted holster, I toggle the safety off.

HoWink

It’s also my understanding that Jeff Cooper started the whole Condition 1 thing (along with the entire “Condition #” naming system). However, I don’t know if the original SA semi-autos were originally intended to be carried Condition 2 or Condition 3. I always thought it was Condition 2 because that’s most like an SA revolver (which was the most common handgun at that time if I’m not mistaken).

I started my LE career carrying a Colt Series 70 .45 just after graduating from the academy (we had to carry .38/.357s while in the academy because the ammo was free to all who did), but after a couple of years went to a department that authorized personally owned/department approved Colt, S&W, or Browning High Powers in 9mm only. I went with the BHP, but the safety kept getting pushed off until I took the pistol to James Hoag (a really well know gunsmith from the 1970's and '80's), who installed his own safety. It was a much more secure/serviceable design and though I've made some other improvements (Novak sights) since then, the pistol still uses it.

quote:

Originally posted by Doctor Lock:
Why would anyone even consider carrying cocked and UNlocked? Cocked and locked is what they were designed for. And taking the safety off when needed is simple enough.

Well, that’s pretty much where we are now with fully energized striker fired guns with 5 pound short trigger pulls. And, no manual or even grip safety.

And, many consider them perfectly safe to carry.

I, personally, disagree.

I should have been a bit more detailed in my original post. Right after adoption the Army flirted with numerous different manuals at arms for the 1911. The first link is to a 1913 Small Arms Firing Manual Chapter IX showing instructions on how to lead the pistol, then what to do if not immediately putting the pistol into action. You'll notice that the manual I reference has troops lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber before holstering the pistol. The instructions are on the bottom of the page for pages 85-86.

TO LOAD PISTOL

Being at Raise Pistol (Right hand grasping stock at the height of and 6 inches in front of the point of the right shoulder, forefinger alongside barrel. barrel to the rear and inclined forward about 30**).

Without deranging position of the hand, rotate the pistol so the sights move to the left, the barrel pointing to the right front and up.

With the thumb and forefinger of the Left hand (thumb to the right), grasp the slide and pull it toward the body until it stops and then release it. The pistol is thus loaded, and the hammer at full cock.

If the pistol is to be kept in the hand and not to be fired at once, engage the safety lock with the thumb of the Right hand.

If the pistol is to be carried in the holster, remove safety lock, if on, and lower the hammer fully down.

The hammer drop procedure is as follows:

TO LOWER THE HAMMER: Being at the loading position at full cock.

I. Firmly seat thumb of Right hand on the hammer; Insert forefinger inside trigger guard.

II. With Hhumh of Left hand exert a momentary pressure on the grip-safety to release hammer from sear.

III. At the same instant exert pressure on the trigger and carefully and slowly lower the hammer fully down.

IV. Remove finger from trigger.

V. Insert pistol in holster.

(Caution) The pistol must never be placed in the holster until hammer it fully down.

https://archive.org/details/sm...ode/2up?view=theater


The following is from a 1940 version of FM 23-35.

FM 23-35 Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911 and 1911A1 page 19, paragraph I

I.In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not fore
seen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in
the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use
of the pistol is probable, it should be carried loaded and
locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra maga
zines should be carried fully loaded.

https://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/U.../FM/PDFs/FM23-35.pdf

The thumb safety was added to the Colt M1910 at the request of the Army because they wanted their cavalry troops to be able to make the pistol safe for holstering until such time as is could be returned to what we now call condition 3.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Link

DESCRIPTION
OF THE
AUTOMATIC PISTOL, CALIBER .45
MODEL OF 1911
WITH RULES FOR MANAGEMENT, MEMORANDA OF TRAJECTORY, AND DESCRIPTION OF AMMUNITION
(SIX PLATES)
APRIL 1, 1912
REVISED FEBRUARY 14, 1914

Page 13
Methods of Operation

If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots, draw back the slide (3), insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel (2), allow the slide (3) to close, then lock the slide
(3) and the cocked hammer (23) by pressing the safety lock (36) upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide (3) and hammer
(23) being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (36) (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position.

Seems to say cocked and locked is safe to carry all the way back in 1912 or 1914.

Hey Chris-

I feel your pain.
Let me tell you about the time I posted a picture of a S&W revolver in a Tom Threeperson holster.

Can you guess how many posts I received informing me that this was the MOST dangerous holster EVER made....because it had an exposed trigger.

Never mind the strap over the lowered hammer. Never mind the tight fit that prevented the cylinder from rotating.

Well, I still stuff a revolver in my waistband and feel perfectly safe about it. I don't feel safe just standing next to a guy wearing a striker fired pistol.

quote:

Let me tell you about the time I posted a picture of a S&W revolver in a Tom Threeperson holster.

Can you guess how many posts I received informing me that this was the MOST dangerous holster EVER made....because it had an exposed trigger.

Never

It’s really funny. In the day, I carried Revolvers in Don Hume Border patrol holsters. As you said, the strap (or thumbsnap on later versions) prevented the hammer from being drawn back.

An open trigger guard was considered safer as it wouldn’t stop your finger if you reholstered with your finger on the trigger. Which actually could fire the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt 127:

quote:

Let me tell you about the time I posted a picture of a S&W revolver in a Tom Threeperson holster.

Can you guess how many posts I received informing me that this was the MOST dangerous holster EVER made....because it had an exposed trigger.

Never

It’s really funny. In the day, I carried Revolvers in Don Hume Border patrol holsters. As you said, the strap (or thumbsnap on later versions) prevented the hammer from being drawn back.

An open trigger guard was considered safer as it wouldn’t stop your finger if you reholstered with your finger on the trigger. Which actually could fire the gun.

Yes, and as crazy as it sounds, I get it.

These guys have trigger discipline drilled into them. It's a darn good thing too. It's the short and light trigger pull on most strikers.

I'm NOT trained with a striker. That's on me. I don't plaster the internet with how unsafe they are. In trained hands.....uh ok, in my hands? Nope.

The same guys will also tell you that it's safe to "look your pistol back into your holster when reholstering". If your ok with that then knock yourself out.

Over the years layer upon layer of "best practices" pile up and pistol configurations change. What we used to do with a revolver will kill someone on a striker fired weapon with a light trigger.

No way, you would be looking for trouble.

As an old-school P7 guy, I've always favored the consistent trigger pull of an SA weapon. But somewhere along the way I came to accept a Glock into my life. I do recall considering the dingus safety and having assessed an opinion that this was not as "fool"proof as other platforms like the P7 or a manual safety 1911A1. I accepted this trade off for the Glock's many benefits and for its intended use (in-home only).

Since then, I've also taken on a P365 for possible small carry. Though I never have yet. I don't know that I ever thought about the idea that it has no safety nor dingus. Perhaps just used to not seeing a hammer, and frankly, I'm a little embarrassed as I think more clearly now.

If I keep the 365, I will install the manual safety. Recently I've been contemplating bringing a P228 back on for carry, and going old-school-curmudgeon on my gun collection/use. I'm getting to the age where I want my stuff to be borderline antique.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: r0gue,

quote:

Originally posted by TOMT:.

The same guys will also tell you that it's safe to "look your pistol back into your holster when reholstering". If your ok with that then knock yourself out.

Yeah. A lot of those people have never had to get that gun out of their hand and secured to fight someone. Suddenly have to climb a fence. Go up a ladder. At 2:30 in the morning in a dark alley.

I rate that right up there with the finger waggling “This is my safety!”