https://www.bing.com/videos/se...D667D9D0D4&FORM=VIRE
a demo of muzzle flip

quote:

Originally posted by The Viking:

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:

quote:

It has zero to do with “high bore axis”. That’s a red herring.

This.

And this - if you want to believe high bore axis is a thing, what you're saying is that the barrel is a lever, and the bullet/gas/pressure/whatever leaving the end of the muzzle are the force acting upon the lever to rotate the pistol upward around a fulcrum located somewhere in your hand, the grip, the frame, etc. Now, I'm not a smart man, so you may have to draw me a picture, but how is making the lever longer going to reduce that force?

For example moving from compact to full size.

Watch Travis Haley explain grip - then grip your own pistol half way down the grip and fire it - gee that is going to be the non existent muzzle flip when the muzzle flips up:
https://www.bing.com/videos/se...14FEA534A9&FORM=VIRE

Reading comprehension is important.

I am not implying, and never said “muzzle flip” does not exist. I simply stated that making the barrel longer doesn’t change it. Within reason.

Obviously at a certain length, the mass of the barrel will overcome the force delivered by the bullet/gas/powder.

But, if one defensive pistol in the same caliber as another defensive pistol has noticeably less “flip” than another, I posit to you that it has much more to do with the shooters grip (or available grip) on the gun itself, rather than some small discrepancy of bore over trigger axis between brand A or brand B.

Yes reading comprehension is important. Now go back and read my question.

No one is saying muzzle flip doesn’t exist. What we’re saying is bore axis isn’t an issue like you’ve apparently been led to believe.

First, you’re worried about bore axis impacting muzzle flip. Usually includes spouting “cuz physics!” But then bore axis proponents completely discount that the same physics are in play as the slide moves forward. A lot of competitive shooters actually worry more about...wait for it...muzzle dip. *GASP* They’ll run lighter recoil springs to avoid the muzzle dipping at the end of the slide returning to battery.

Second, all of this happens faster than you can react to. For most of us, the pistol has completely cycled before we start coming off the trigger press for reset. So any additional muzzle flip because “muh bore axis” is negated by muzzle dip before you can react.

Third, your best approach to dealing with recoil management is to get stronger. None of these shooters you’re linking have weak hands. They’re all fit with great hand strength. Go look at Jerry Miculek’s hands. And then watch him shoot revolvers and tell me if bore axis matters. Cuz revolvers often have a very high bore axis and don’t have a slide to reciprocate and bring the muzzle back down. Yet Jerry still manages to shoot a revolver faster and more accurately than you or I ever will.

So if you want to be a better shooter, work on being a better shooter. Don’t change your equipment. Improve YOU.

quote:

Originally posted by The Viking:

While I appreciate your effort My question was has anyone shot both the compact 9mm and the full sized and noticed a significant difference in muzzle flip? The full size is going to give less muzzle flip because of more barrel and slide making it heavier on the muzzle end.

Your question regarded someone who has shot both. I have. I own both. I own all of the models, all of the grip styles, and have two shelves in one safe devoted to the P320. I shoot it competitively. I relayed my experiences to you regarding shooting the compact vs. the full length, and the truth is, there's no significant difference at all.

You're thanking people who tell you what you want to hear, and arguing with those who don't. You don't want to hear the truth.

The truth is exactly what one of the most experienced shooters on the board has already told you (not me), among others. You don't want to hear it, even when those who have shot and own both have responded, because it isn't telling you what you want to hear.

Stop compensating for poor technique by adding weight, stop making excuses about "bore axis," and get some training. The difference between the full size and compact slight length is negligible, and irrelevant if proper technique is used.

Lately, I have re-kindled love for the .40sw and though costly ammo, my p320C in the .40 I am using, really liking the way it shoots etc. I have gone from using a SC grip module back to the C grip module; the reason is muzzle-flip. Even with the 13 rnd magazine with a spacer on the SC grip, the muzzle-flip was noticeably different from the C grip.

quote:

Originally posted by The Viking:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by The Viking:
So my question is this, has any shot both the oompact and the full size; and does the full size have much less muzzle flip?

They all shoot about the same, though, and the fundamentals of shooting them are the same.

The difference in recoil or "flip" between the compact and full size slides is, in my opinion, insignificant.

.

While I appreciate your effort My question was has anyone shot both the compact 9mm and the full sized and noticed a significant difference in muzzle flip? The full size is going to give less muzzle flip because of more barrel and slide making it heavier on the muzzle end. If don't believe hand a TLR - 1 light on the 320 and see what happens when you fire it or watch this dvd:
https://www.bing.com/videos/se...14FEA534A9&FORM=VIRE
Now grap your pistol half way down the grip and fire it. Watch the muzzle flip up - that is high bore axis flip.

He answered your question.

Sounds like someone is looking for an echo chamber.

First off, thanks to Artie for the kind words. Secondly, there is a whole lot of "Rooster crows, sun comes up, so the rooster had to make the sun come up logic".

High bore axis is a fallacy. That it has anything to do with "muzzle flip" is laughable. I'm surprised in this day in age that we aren't blaming Russians for hacking our pistols and making them "flip"

There is a lot to how the shooter holds the pistol that goes into "flip". Posting a video of XYZ personality (me included) does absolutely nothing without context.

Let's look at Travis Haley specifically. Travis is from the 90s tacticool crowd that shoots a hard locked out tactical turtle type stance. And to half ass get away with it, he has to grip the shit out of the pistol to keep the sights returning. The whole "grip the pistol halfway down.....see see see, I told you" is part of that bullshit that perpetuates itself. Locking out aggressively and muscling the gun is certainly one way to get the job done. But, the guys that generally do this are 5 yard wonders. Meaning you get them much past 5 yards and the speed/accuracy dies. The reason for this is that extreme lock out causes a human diving board effect that naturally introduces more sight travel and less control in the pistol.

Now, Exhibit B. Look at your top tier competitors, or speed shooting heavy LE outfits like the FAMs. Their natural body position allows them to not to have to death grip the gun to influence sight track. Their shoulders are down, arms bent and the gun is simply brought to the eye. This allows the body to work with the gun, requires less muscle, and takes out the human diving board effect. Max Michel and Mason Lane are winning everything that isn't nailed down with the P320. Look at what their form looks like, or Frank Proctor for that matter. As posted above, they are springing the gun worried about the muzzle dipping as it comes back into lock up, not "flip" of the gun functioning.

High bore axis is bullshit. Plain and simple.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

Max Michel and Mason Lane are winning everything that isn't nailed down with the P320.

Max has been with the SIG for a very long time, as in way before the 320, shooting SIG 1911s in the past. Do you know why he never shot the 226?

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

Max Michel and Mason Lane are winning everything that isn't nailed down with the P320.

Max has been with the SIG for a very long time, as in way before the 320, shooting SIG 1911s in the past. Do you know why he never shot the 226?

I've seen him shooting a 226X5 around the academy. I don't think he ever shot one in a match. He always shot a hybrid 1911.

I think the answer is, the guns that go "boom, boom, boom" have just a little more muzzleliciousness than the guns that only go "bang, bang, bang." Simple physics.

quote:

Originally posted by Brother:
I think the answer is, the guns that go "boom, boom, boom" have just a little more muzzleliciousness than the guns that only go "bang, bang, bang." Simple physics.

Is that patented? You really should Copyright and patent that.

Right after muzzlepalooza.

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:
Our own jljones with OpSpec has a great video on grip and grip pressure. After watching his vid, I changed my grip, immediately got better control of the muzzle, and reduced my groups. His support hand is much further forward on the gun than mine was, and the downward deflection of his left wrist greatly helps in reducing muzzle rise.

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YNVYu3koF4o" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

The comment about "muzzle flip is a red herring" totally makes me wish I had the Photoshop skills to replace the pistol in this video with a red herring

I crack myself up.

Bruce

I did a "small-sample," informal and totally unscientific comparison between my P320 with a "high bore axis" and a CZ P-07 and P-01 that should have lower bore axes because of the way their slides ride inside the frames. (This is actually a little bit of an optical illusion.) But (as far as I can tell by lying them atop one another), the actual difference is less than a quarter of an inch, if even that. I can't tell any meaningful difference. In a light-recoiling caliber like 9mm (which mine are), and with a good grip as high as possible, you shouldn't have any major problems with muzzle flip.

I think until you can shoot like this I think you should be more concerned with your stance and grip than the bore axis of your pistol. This is a 226 LDC and he has many other videos running 226 capsicum. Great ISPC shooter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0fw9yN-_dM

That was some smooth, flat shooting.