Muzzle flip

July 18, 2019, 04:40 PM

The Viking

Muzzle flip

My Sig 320 compacts, which I like very much, do give me some muzzle flip as the bore axis is somewhat high on these pistols. I have tamed a lot of this muzzle flip by putting a light on the pistols ( either a TLR -1 or TLR - 7). However, I was watching a dvd done by SGM Kyle Lamb. He and his partner were using Sig 320s ( full size) and the full size 320 ( M 17) seems to have much less muzzle flip. So my question is this, has any shot both the oompact and the full size; and does the full size have much less muzzle flip?

July 18, 2019, 06:08 PM

az4783054

Were they all the same caliber and ammunition loads?

Night and day between a 9mm and .40s&w or .357sig. And more flash from the latter.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: az4783054,

July 18, 2019, 06:23 PM

RichN

quote:
Originally posted by az4783054:
Were they all the same caliber and ammunition loads?

Night and day between a 9mm and .40s&w or .357sig. And more flash from the latter.

Also night and day between .40 S&W and .357 SIG. The .40 has the most flip, while the .357 has less flip, but more of a "smack" straight back into your hand. The .357 flip is still more than the 9 mm.

July 18, 2019, 06:25 PM

Dakor

My theory is that SigArms slaps rails on all its pistols for the most part b/c it can’t design a pistol without a high bore axis. The fix for the resulting muzzle flip is a... wait for it... a light.

July 18, 2019, 06:30 PM

jljones

It has zero to do with “high bore axis”. That’s a red herring. Kyle is trained, and knows how to shoot. Good form manages recoil.

July 18, 2019, 06:45 PM

tigereye313

My P228 has a high bore axis, but for me with a nice firm grip, on recoil it just rocks back and then right back down on target.

July 18, 2019, 08:16 PM

BuddyChryst

quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
It has zero to do with “high bore axis”. That’s a red herring. Kyle is trained, and knows how to shoot. Good form manages recoil.

Thank you! We need billboards and PSAs on the radio to end this “high bore axis” nonsense.

July 18, 2019, 10:03 PM

Skins2881

quote:
Originally posted by tigereye313:
My P228 has a high bore axis, but for me with a nice firm grip, on recoil it just rocks back and then right back down on target.

Strange, my 225, 226, 228, 229, 2022 do the same. Haven't shot the 230 recently enough to remember, but I'm pretty sure it's bore axis is a little less stoned. The moment I can shoot fast enough for this to be a problem to me will be a happy day.

July 18, 2019, 10:51 PM

venenoindy

There are a lot of variables on shooting handguns, the best advice I can give you is learn how to grip a handgun. The second thing is smaller guns are harder to manage, what it boils down to is educate yourself and how properly shoot a handgun before you try to compensate with hardware.

July 18, 2019, 11:13 PM

tigereye313

quote:
Originally posted by Skins2881:
quote:
Originally posted by tigereye313:
My P228 has a high bore axis, but for me with a nice firm grip, on recoil it just rocks back and then right back down on target.

Strange, my 225, 226, 228, 229, 2022 do the same. Haven't shot the 230 recently enough to remember, but I'm pretty sure it's bore axis is a little less stoned. The moment I can shoot fast enough for this to be a problem to me will be a happy day.

I lubs my P228, so easy to shoot well.

July 18, 2019, 11:20 PM

YooperSigs

High bore axis, thy name is Ruger Blackhawk.
Mine seems to shoot fine, despite this.

July 19, 2019, 12:13 AM

sns3guppy

quote:
Originally posted by The Viking:
So my question is this, has any shot both the oompact and the full size; and does the full size have much less muzzle flip?

I have full size, compact, and subcompact P320's. For the last year or so I've been focusing mostly on the P320, and have been enjoying them quite a bit.

Because the P320 is modular and can have multiple grips and weight and slide lengths, it can feel a little different. They all shoot about the same, though, and the fundamentals of shooting them are the same.

People with expertise have said they feel that the full size is a bit more prone to muzzle "dip," rather than "flip," as the recoil spring drives the slide home, and that can lend to shooting low or increasing time between shots, or a need to train out of doing that.

If your grip is correct and you're using correct trigger control, "flip" or recoil is largely irrelevant, as the sights return to the target as you're resetting the trigger and it happens fast enough that by the time you're ready to fire again, the sights are in place. How accurately this happens is depends on how much you train (and train properly).

The difference in recoil or "flip" between the compact and full size slides is, in my opinion, insignificant.

I've been loading a 147 grain round with 3.1 grains of Titegroup that's weak, but easy to shoot, just to experiment, and in the P320, it's almost like stepping back to a .22. It also removes any excuse for "flip" or recoil and reveals bad shooting habits, which I have aplenty.

in general, a full size grip (the "carry" or "full size" grip) is going to make control easier than a compact or subcompact grip. You'll have more gripping area. Once fundamentals are in place, you won't notice a lot of difference between any of the grip modules, because how accurately the pistol can be shot is not the fault of the pistol, but the shooter. That said, the newer x-grips are really comfortable and I like them quite a lot. I've put them on all my pistols, and have been doing most of my shooting lately with one of the Grayguns sculpted x-grips, a carry grip with a full size slide. I reall like it.

Focus on the grip, thumbs atop one another, forward, gripping front strap to back strap on the shooting ihand, and compressing side to side with the support hand, locking in the fingers along the front strap, low tension, and press the trigger rather than pull. Focus on finding the reset with each shot instead of just snapping the trigger, and follow through with sights on the target. Start slow, let the timing get faster gradually, and watch the sight return to the same point as you're preparing the trigger for the next shot. The "flip" will occur (physics doesn't end), but you won't notice it and it won't impede your next shot, because you're focusing on the fundamentals.

I submit that this is where the difference lies in the slide lengths; perception by the shooter (or lack thereof), rather than any real difference in "flip." The issue of "bore axis" doesn't really make that much difference. For most of us who aren't high-level shooters, it doesn't make any difference at all. It's not the pistol, it's the shooter, and any real advantage from a "lower bore axis" is something that a higher level shooter can exploit, while the rest of us need to simply focus on the fundamentals.

A light is useful for illumination, but I wouldn't put one on the pistol to make up for shooting skills; focus on learning to shoot the pistol properly. If you're training with the light because its what you use on the pistol you carry, for night illumination, then fine, but otherwise it's a gimmick that is being used to compensate for improper technique. If your technique is good, then you don't need the extra weight up there. If your technique is good, then you can begin to take advantage of the extra weight...but until then, it's compensating. Lamb and others don't need the light to fix bad technique, but they may be able to exploit it because they're already operating at a higher level of control.

Ditch the extras and focus on the basics. Get with some competent training, then go back and train to work on basics. Do a LOT of dry fire, and incorporate it into live fire. Then back to dry, and do it daily. The P320 is a lightweight pistol; you're going to notice "flip" more than a heavy pistol, but especially if you're shooting 9X19mm, then it's very manageable. The "flip" and "bore axis" issues you're seeing are basics that you can take care of with training and more training.

July 19, 2019, 04:32 AM

toto

Yes the p320C has more muzzle flip compared to the full size. She feels more snappy to me.

July 19, 2019, 04:35 AM

toto

Short barrel pistols tend to produce more blast at the muzzle

July 19, 2019, 06:18 AM

ArtieS

Our own jljones with OpSpec has a great video on grip and grip pressure. After watching his vid, I changed my grip, immediately got better control of the muzzle, and reduced my groups. His support hand is much further forward on the gun than mine was, and the downward deflection of his left wrist greatly helps in reducing muzzle rise.

July 19, 2019, 06:51 AM

bionic218

quote:
It has zero to do with “high bore axis”. That’s a red herring.

This.

And this - if you want to believe high bore axis is a thing, what you're saying is that the barrel is a lever, and the bullet/gas/pressure/whatever leaving the end of the muzzle are the force acting upon the lever to rotate the pistol upward around a fulcrum located somewhere in your hand, the grip, the frame, etc. Now, I'm not a smart man, so you may have to draw me a picture, but how is making the lever longer going to reduce that force?

For example moving from compact to full size.

July 19, 2019, 08:45 AM

The Viking

quote:
Originally posted by az4783054:
Were they all the same caliber and ammunition loads?

Night and day between a 9mm and .40s&w or .357sig. And more flash from the latter.

Yup 9mm

July 19, 2019, 08:47 AM

The Viking

quote:
Originally posted by bionic218:
quote:
It has zero to do with “high bore axis”. That’s a red herring.

This.

And this - if you want to believe high bore axis is a thing, what you're saying is that the barrel is a lever, and the bullet/gas/pressure/whatever leaving the end of the muzzle are the force acting upon the lever to rotate the pistol upward around a fulcrum located somewhere in your hand, the grip, the frame, etc. Now, I'm not a smart man, so you may have to draw me a picture, but how is making the lever longer going to reduce that force?

For example moving from compact to full size.

Watch Travis Haley explain grip - then grip your own pistol half way down the grip and fire it - gee that is going to be the non existent muzzle flip when the muzzle flips up:
https://www.bing.com/videos/se...14FEA534A9&FORM=VIRE

July 19, 2019, 08:55 AM

The Viking

quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by The Viking:
So my question is this, has any shot both the oompact and the full size; and does the full size have much less muzzle flip?

I have full size, compact, and subcompact P320's. For the last year or so I've been focusing mostly on the P320, and have been enjoying them quite a bit.

Because the P320 is modular and can have multiple grips and weight and slide lengths, it can feel a little different. They all shoot about the same, though, and the fundamentals of shooting them are the same.

People with expertise have said they feel that the full size is a bit more prone to muzzle "dip," rather than "flip," as the recoil spring drives the slide home, and that can lend to shooting low or increasing time between shots, or a need to train out of doing that.

If your grip is correct and you're using correct trigger control, "flip" or recoil is largely irrelevant, as the sights return to the target as you're resetting the trigger and it happens fast enough that by the time you're ready to fire again, the sights are in place. How accurately this happens is depends on how much you train (and train properly).

The difference in recoil or "flip" between the compact and full size slides is, in my opinion, insignificant.

I've been loading a 147 grain round with 3.1 grains of Titegroup that's weak, but easy to shoot, just to experiment, and in the P320, it's almost like stepping back to a .22. It also removes any excuse for "flip" or recoil and reveals bad shooting habits, which I have aplenty.

in general, a full size grip (the "carry" or "full size" grip) is going to make control easier than a compact or subcompact grip. You'll have more gripping area. Once fundamentals are in place, you won't notice a lot of difference between any of the grip modules, because how accurately the pistol can be shot is not the fault of the pistol, but the shooter. That said, the newer x-grips are really comfortable and I like them quite a lot. I've put them on all my pistols, and have been doing most of my shooting lately with one of the Grayguns sculpted x-grips, a carry grip with a full size slide. I reall like it.

Focus on the grip, thumbs atop one another, forward, gripping front strap to back strap on the shooting ihand, and compressing side to side with the support hand, locking in the fingers along the front strap, low tension, and press the trigger rather than pull. Focus on finding the reset with each shot instead of just snapping the trigger, and follow through with sights on the target. Start slow, let the timing get faster gradually, and watch the sight return to the same point as you're preparing the trigger for the next shot. The "flip" will occur (physics doesn't end), but you won't notice it and it won't impede your next shot, because you're focusing on the fundamentals.

I submit that this is where the difference lies in the slide lengths; perception by the shooter (or lack thereof), rather than any real difference in "flip." The issue of "bore axis" doesn't really make that much difference. For most of us who aren't high-level shooters, it doesn't make any difference at all. It's not the pistol, it's the shooter, and any real advantage from a "lower bore axis" is something that a higher level shooter can exploit, while the rest of us need to simply focus on the fundamentals.

A light is useful for illumination, but I wouldn't put one on the pistol to make up for shooting skills; focus on learning to shoot the pistol properly. If you're training with the light because its what you use on the pistol you carry, for night illumination, then fine, but otherwise it's a gimmick that is being used to compensate for improper technique. If your technique is good, then you don't need the extra weight up there. If your technique is good, then you can begin to take advantage of the extra weight...but until then, it's compensating. Lamb and others don't need the light to fix bad technique, but they may be able to exploit it because they're already operating at a higher level of control.

Ditch the extras and focus on the basics. Get with some competent training, then go back and train to work on basics. Do a LOT of dry fire, and incorporate it into live fire. Then back to dry, and do it daily. The P320 is a lightweight pistol; you're going to notice "flip" more than a heavy pistol, but especially if you're shooting 9X19mm, then it's very manageable. The "flip" and "bore axis" issues you're seeing are basics that you can take care of with training and more training.

While I appreciate your effort My question was has anyone shot both the compact 9mm and the full sized and noticed a significant difference in muzzle flip? The full size is going to give less muzzle flip because of more barrel and slide making it heavier on the muzzle end. If don't believe hand a TLR - 1 light on the 320 and see what happens when you fire it or watch this dvd:
https://www.bing.com/videos/se...14FEA534A9&FORM=VIRE
Now grap your pistol half way down the grip and fire it. Watch the muzzle flip up - that is high bore axis flip.

July 19, 2019, 09:09 AM

The Viking

quote:
Originally posted by toto:
Yes the p320C has more muzzle flip compared to the full size. She feels more snappy to me.

Thank you very much. Appreciate you answering my question