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| Member |
Expansion was not the problem in that shootout. Penetration was. The Silvertip 9mm ammo the Bureau used back then just didn't penetrate far enough. I think it was Platt that was hit in the chest and had a bullet stop one centimeter short of his heart. Had that bullet penetrated just a little bit farther, his heart would have been pierced and he would have been history sooner. | |||
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| Member |
I see more 40S&W on the shelf than 9mm right now. In my area 9mm is the LE caliber of choice. DPR | |||
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| Member |
Exactly this. The strange thing is the way the FBI responded to the gunfight. Instead of just adopting a deeper penetrating 9mm bullet or reissuing the 45acp, they decided to adapt a brand new cartridge and guns. The Feds at their finest. We all know the rest of the story. Now things have come full circle and they are back to 9mm. | |||
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| Member |
at the begining of the election cycle and covidian crisis, 40sw was still stupid cheap. I picked up 4k, I also have fallen back in love with shooting it. I have 3 more 40sw pistols I picked up on cheap because they were 40sw. I can't complain. | |||
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| Freethinker |
As usual, lots of bizarre beliefs and misunderstandings in discussions like these. What is perhaps strangest about the Miami incident’s effect on the FBI was that one gunfight, one shot, and one response to the shot changed an entire culture (for a time). FWIW, the FBI revolvers were chambered for 357 Magnum, but the ammunition was +P 38 Special. I have never found reference to which particular load was issued, but many such loads are/were no more potent than 9mm Luger rounds. What if that one bullet that failed to penetrate into the heart had been from one of the revolvers most of the agents were carrying? And what about the FBI shotguns? They had almost no effect on the outcome, and yet many people believe them to be only slightly less effective than the hammer of Thor to this day. Even if the 9mm bullet had penetrated to the heart, how would that have changed anything? After killing the two agents soon after being shot, that BG started retreating back to his car in an apparent attempt to get away from the scene. Even a heart shot requires bleeding out or something like cardiac tamponade to shut things down; it does not necessarily happen immediately with a determined attacker. If the one injured agent who was still in the fight hadn’t approached and killed him, his previous wound was still considered “nonsurvivable” and he would have died anyway. Moreover, considering the circumstances of the fight, the fact that the shot happened to be in line with the BG’s heart was more or less pure chance. If it hadn’t been, no blame would have ever been attached to the 9mm Silvertip bullet’s performance. In addition, the first cartridge the FBI adopted as a result of the Miami incident was a potent 10mm Auto which was unpopular precisely because it was too powerful for some agents to shoot well, and in the words of one agent, the pistol it was chambered for was like “Trying to conceal a box of Wheaties.” It was only later that the 40 S&W was developed when others realized that it would perform just as well as the downloaded 10mm load the FBI adopted for a time, and in a smaller case that would fit in a 9mm-sized pistol.This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund, ► 6.4/93.6 “Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.” — Leo Tolstoy | |||
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"Member" |
I'm curious how you can tell .40S&W is getting harder to find, while everything else is hard to find too?  | |||
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| Member |
I've worn a .40 S&W duty gun for over 17 years and never had any doubt it will do the job if my shot placement is accurate. In FBI protocol ballistic testing we have done in our LE handgun instructor classes, the 180 grain .40 Federal HST duty round we use consistently penetrates 3 layers of denim, automobile glass, automobile steel, and punches through 17" of ballistic gelatin - and consistently expands to .788" and never loses more than 3-5 grains of its original weight. This level of consistency is impressive in any handgun bullet. And while we can't rely on any handgun to stop an attacker as quickly as a rifle round will - today's bullet designs (grain for grain) are more effective than at any other time in history. As so many very wise and knowledgeable experts have said, placement is everything, so we must find what we shoot best and stick with it. | |||
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| Big Stack |
Why? Cost? Shootability? Pistol wear?
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| Member |
My local Cabel's has had 40 S&W on the shelf, in quanities, for the last six months. The other calibers disappear within minutes of being placed on the shelves. So, the 40 seems to be less popular than 9MM or 45ACP and 38 seems to be cpmpletely unavailable. | |||
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| Member |
Pardon the thread drift, but the FBI's problem wasn't the caliber of their handguns. That was a convenient excuse for the following: 1) When they encountered Platt and Matix they were part of a rolling stakeout and happened to spot the suspect's car. The take down was spontaneous and unplanned. No uniformed officers were involved. None of the Agents had rifles, just two shotguns. This was happenstance and not an up-armored FBI team ready for war. 2) Both Platt and Matix were military vets and practiced with small arms on their own. In other words, proficient. At the time of the stop they had handguns, a shotgun and, more importantly, a rifle. 3) I have never read anything explaining why, knowing the history of the perps (presuming they did), they decided to engage on their own. As opposed to tailing and then bringing in heavily armed LEO's for the stop. Most FBI Agents are lightly armed detectives/investigators, not heavily armed tactical response guys. With eight FBI Agents, there were only handguns, two shotguns, no rifles and only two guys with light body armor. 4) The Agents who did NOT participate were better armed than the valiant Agents who did. "The other six agents involved in the stakeout in five vehicles had additional weaponry including Remington shotguns, Heckler & Koch MP5 submachine guns, and M16 rifles, but did not reach the shootout in time to participate." The FBI brass were highly embarrassed by the 1986 Miami Shootout. Unfortunately, they blamed most of it on the choice of handgun caliber and type of handgun (revolvers). I won't even get into the 10mm fiasco later. Just my two cents. Drifting back to the thread. I started using the .40 in 1996 and consider it a fine SD cartridge. Fortunately, I have tons of reloads and a small stash of premium SD ammo. Once the 9mm FBI/LEA craze started, combined with millions of new shooters, the forty was destined to the dustbin of history. Sure, it will still stay around to some extent. Two years ago I was at my LGS, run by a personal friend of mine. He didn't take forties in trade anymore and no longer carried new guns in stock. Still here, but a dying breed. Unless the FBI switches back to forty from nines! ______________________ An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing. --Nicholas Murray Butler | |||
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| Member |
Agree. While ammunition performance must be considered, it was tactical and judgement errors that made the Platt / Matix shooting such a disaster. The decision to ram the suspect vehicle after the suspects were seen loading a Mini 14 is inexplicable. I received the published FBI critique in an effort to try and learn from it. But it was clear to me that ammo was the least of the problems of the shooting. End of Earth: 2 Miles Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
Indeed. It wasn’t the failure of the 9mm. It was the failure of Gordon McNeil as a leader. He led those men into a bloodbath. No rifles. No SWAT. A half ass, cowboy seat of the pants plan that put Dove and Grogan in a grave. Yeah, I’d blame the ammo too after that miserable of a failure. Fuck that guy. | |||
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| Member |
I have found a great deal of freedom in reloading due to this very problem of available ammo. I have been reloading 40 now for over 18 years. You may find the same enjoyment and chance to try different bullets/powder that you like as well. Too many SIGs .. ... Nah not really | |||
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| Member |
Throughout the Covidiot crisis and rioting, several of my LGS maintained a good supply of 40 S&W ammo. Most didn't increase the price by much, maybe 20 percent. BTW, I don't think that even covered the fuel cost of shipping it. Fuel costs doubled. | |||
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| and this little pig said: |
My agency uses the .40S&W exclusively. While there are reports of officers not qualifying due to the recoil of the .40, it's usually the ones who only hit the range at qualification time! Rumor has it that we will be transitioning to 9mm in the future, but I'll be long retired! I have (3) pistols in .40S&W. It is my carry ammo when out hiking. | |||
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Res ipsa loquitur |
I have two Walther PPQ M2s one chambered in 9mm and one in 40 S&W. I also have a P228 and a P229 chambered in 40SW. They all shoot equally well. Ammo availability and cost drive which caliber I shoot. I think the recoil "problems" associated with 40 are exaggerated to justify the switch to 9mm. __________________________ | |||
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| Member |
I hear you, I really do. One of my guys wanted a "box" of ammo to train on his own (I wouldn't bother going to the range with one box!). I gave him a box of 50 and it sat on top of his locker for two years. We switched to Gen 5 G17/19 and our officers do better on the range. IMHO if you switch to 9mm your officers will hit what they're aiming at more often and in real life only hits count. DPR | |||
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| Member |
I have a bunch of handguns in .40. Mostly ones purchased some time ago. A few more recent ones. I plan on buying more. I carried handguns in .40 at different times; P229, Beretta 96, K40, P239, G27, P2000sk, etc. I like .40. Years back, I shot a Beretta 92 at the range and a guy nearby also shot a beretta. It was louder than mine; noticeably. I enquired; it was a 96. I picked up his brass, first time handling .40, and noticed that my 9mm brass dropped inside the 40 (the bane of anyone sorting brass to reload...). Now, one piece of brass dropping into another piece of brass has squat to do with performance, speed, accuracy, shootability, yada, yada...but the emotional, non-intellectual, visual response was bigger bang, bigger brass, better choice. Idiotic, I know, but I've never been guilty of a high class ranking in anything but crayola coloring books and eating glue...so I bought a .40. Similar reason for loving .45 initially (hey, the .40 fits in the .45...). That, and an unnatural, inappropriate, deep-seated affection for the 1911, for reloading the .45, and for brass that never seems to wear out. Not as many rounds, but then I grew up with .38 revolvers, so the kid raised on mac and cheese doesn't really miss steak, and my pathetic, malnourised self ate a lot of noodles...so any pistol with more than 6 rounds that's easier to clean than scrubbing all the chambers out of a revolver...score. A plus. Neato. .40, sign me up. Mostly, I carry 9mm today; it's cheap(er) to reload, holds more rounds, cheaper for training or playing, and so on. More recent .40 purchases included the P320 and G35 for steel shooting, in the quest to hide my poor skill set with weak, anemic ammunition and low recoil...a bigger, heavier bullet in .40. makes power factor at a lower velocity than 9mm, shooting from the same frame...so part of the great experiment in finding ways to do better at the competition without actually having any skill or ability. .40 makes sense. Kind of. Defensively...bigger bang and the brass swallows up 9mm. Must be better. That, and gun rag writers love to say "make mine a .40," or "I'll carry anything so long as it begins with a .4," or whatever the tried and true saying of the day is (was). I like .40 because I've got a bunch of .40 handguns sitting in safes and it would make me even more stupid than my inherently dumb self, if I kept all those .40's around and didn't like it, or didn't have a use. One day, firearms will be hard to get, and what's in the safe will be all there is, and I'll pass them along to friends and family when the shit hits the fan...one day, like say, 2021, when one couldn't buy a slingshot. .40 handguns, less expensive, easier to get, ammunition more available, and who cares if it's not the cool kids caliber any more? What, like I'm going to defend my home and the bad guy will say, "but that was .40, that's not cool?" I think not. .40 isn't going anywhere. It will be around a long time. Besides, it takes a real pro to handle the glawk fo-tay. Ask any DEA guy. In a classroom. In a high school. Somewhere. I know. The 90's called. They want my .40 back. Well, I'm keeping them. | |||
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E tan e epi tas |
I am fairly caliber agnostic and concede that 9mm is probably the best overall mix of attributes in a defensive caliber, especially with modern loadings. That said I like .40. I think it makes for a solid defensive cartridge with a great record and I never understand all the IT RECOILS SOOOOOOO MUCH stuff. It is, however, harder on guns of course and there are loadings out there that are STOUT like that 155 grain CBP load they used, that stuff would probably batter the hell out of a gun. Overall, however, I like .40. Take Care, Shoot Safe, Chris | |||
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| Big Stack |
My point of view is this. It starts out bigger, it expands to a larger size, and it penetrates about the same. This means it's destroying more tissue as it passes through the target. I had an experience like yours, except I wasn't handling brass, I was handling expanded bullets. It was at a gun show, and an ammo company (some small brand who's name I forgot), had a few recovered slugs on their display. They had the usual 9mm, .40, and .45. Just looking at and handling them the .40 was noticeably bigger than the 9mm. Both had expanded well, but he .40 was just bigger. Now to be fair, the .45 was bigger than the .40. But I feel the impact on the gun of going for .40 to .45 is significantly more than going from 9mm to .40. Usually the latter are essentially the same guns, but with a round or two give up.
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