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Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted
In 2025, are there any nations that require a manual safety on their service pistol? The US seems obsessed with it.

(Please pick one of the other 13 threads to bash the 320 and limit this to manual safety discussion in other nations. Pretty please)




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"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 37626 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
E tan e epi tas
Picture of cslinger
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Only one that jumps to mind is the HK P8A1 and that’s being phased out in Germany but I believe it’s used elsewhere or at least the USP is.

I am pretty sure SOMEBODY still runs the HiPower and CZ pistols.

No idea what Russia uses theses days.


Take Care, Shoot Safe,
Chris
 
Posts: 8236 | Location: On the water | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Honky Lips
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Just about everyone has safeties on their standard issue pistols.


___________________________
The point is, who will stop me?
 
Posts: 8387 | Location: Great Basin | Registered: July 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
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I'm sure cslinger is right about the hi-power, and there are a few smaller NATO countries still carrying the USP. Supposedly Albania is using the PX4...not sure if that's the G or F model, though.
 
Posts: 10259 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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WOW!!!!

I was going to post about how stupid it would be for a military to NOT have a manual safety on any weapon system. But I decided to ask MS Copilot first. The results were shocking, at least to me.

The U.K. and France use the Glock 17 Gen 5, no manual safety.

The most shocking result was Canada. Canada uses the SIG Sauer P320. And as best as I can find, it does not have a manual safety.

So this led to another question which was who was using the P320 outside the United States. This is what MS Copilot told me:

Canadian Armed Forces - The P320 is designated as the C22 Full Frame Modular Pistol
Norwegian Armed Forces - Adopted the P320 as their standard sidearm
French National Police - Uses the P320 as part of their standard issue
Luxembourg Armed Forces - Also adopted the P320
Thai Police - Uses the P320 for their law enforcement needs
Portuguese Armed Forces - Adopted the P320 as their standard sidearm
Danish Armed Forces - Uses the P320 for their military personnel
Singapore Police Force - Employs the P320 for their law enforcement officers
Swedish Armed Forces - Also adopted the P320

So now this leads to the next question. Is anyone outside the United States experiencing Sig P320 discharging without being touched? Or is this just strictly a U.S. phenomenon?

jljones - I apologize. I know you didn't want this to turn into a Sig P320 bashing thread. But I started down the rabbit hole and just couldn't stop myself.

For the record. I do not own a Sig P320 and I don't believe I've actually seen one up close or held one in my hand. I have certainly never fired one.
 
Posts: 6780 | Location: Virginia | Registered: January 22, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Because I hijacked the thread, here is what MS Copilot says each NATO country uses as their service pistol and whether or not it features a manual safety:

Sure! Here's an updated list of service pistols used by each NATO country, including whether they have a manual safety:

1. **Albania**: Beretta 92FS - Yes
2. **Belgium**: FN Five-seveN - Yes
3. **Bulgaria**: Arsenal Strike One - No
4. **Canada**: SIG Sauer P320 (C22 Full Frame Modular Pistol) - No
5. **Croatia**: HS Produkt HS2000 - Yes
6. **Czechia**: CZ 75 - Yes
7. **Denmark**: SIG Sauer P320 - No
8. **Estonia**: Glock 19 - No
9. **Finland**: Glock 17 - No
10. **France**: Glock 17 Gen5 FR - No
11. **Germany**: Heckler & Koch P8 - Yes
12. **Greece**: FN Herstal FNX-45 - Yes
13. **Hungary**: CZ P-09 - Yes
14. **Iceland**: Various pistols for Coast Guard - Varies
15. **Italy**: Beretta 92FS - Yes
16. **Latvia**: Glock 17 - No
17. **Lithuania**: Glock 17 - No
18. **Luxembourg**: SIG Sauer P320 - No
19. **Montenegro**: CZ 75 - Yes
20. **Netherlands**: Glock 17 - No
21. **North Macedonia**: Glock 17 - No
22. **Norway**: SIG Sauer P320 - No
23. **Poland**: VIS 100 - Yes
24. **Portugal**: SIG Sauer P320 - No
25. **Romania**: Beretta Px4 Storm - Yes
26. **Slovakia**: CZ 75 - Yes
27. **Slovenia**: Glock 17 - No
28. **Spain**: Heckler & Koch USP - Yes
29. **Sweden**: Glock 17 - No
30. **Türkiye**: Canik TP9 - Yes
31. **United Kingdom**: Glock 17 Gen5 - No
32. **United States**: SIG Sauer M17/M18 - Yes
 
Posts: 6780 | Location: Virginia | Registered: January 22, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by cslinger:
No idea what Russia uses theses days.


Per MS Copilot:

Russia's standard service pistol is the **MP-443 Grach**, also known as the **PYa** (Pistolet Yarygina) [1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-443_Grach). This semi-automatic pistol has been in service since 2003 [1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-443_Grach).

Regarding your question about the manual safety, the MP-443 Grach does indeed have an **ambidextrous manual safety** [1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-443_Grach). The safety catches are located on both sides of the weapon, allowing it to be manipulated by the thumb [1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-443_Grach).
 
Posts: 6780 | Location: Virginia | Registered: January 22, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have mixed feelings of it, as vet, and as a P320 owner. I say "No" to it if you have solid training for the troops on that particular sidearm and enforce it with discipline for guys ignoring safe practices (two weeks of mess duty in the scullery or trash can detail for example). "Yes" if the arms are stashed in the armory and brought out annually (or less often..I've seen it) and troops will not be familiar with it or safe practices. Which for most cases (sadly) of US forces is the practice. Ammo costs $, and training with, cleaning and maintaining them can be time consuming for upper leadership. Or should I say, "upper management"?
 
Posts: 3646 | Location: Fairfax Co. VA | Registered: August 03, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
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quote:
I was going to post about how stupid it would be for a military to NOT have a manual safety on any weapon system. But I decided to ask MS Copilot first. The results were shocking, at least to me.


Why would that be stupid or shocking? Cops have been carrying handguns without manual safeties in this country for decades. The entire Glock platform, which is one of the most popular military and law enforcement pistols in the world, does not have a manual safety. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of modern defensive handguns sold today do not have one.
 
Posts: 10259 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 92fstech:
quote:
I was going to post about how stupid it would be for a military to NOT have a manual safety on any weapon system. But I decided to ask MS Copilot first. The results were shocking, at least to me.


Why would that be stupid or shocking? Cops have been carrying handguns without manual safeties in this country for decades. The entire Glock platform, which is one of the most popular military and law enforcement pistols in the world, does not have a manual safety. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of modern defensive handguns sold today do not have one.


Did you read anything else I posted? Or did you just stop at that?

If you had continued to read on, you would have seen I posted a list that shows half the NATO countries use service pistols that don't have manual safeties. Five are using the P320 without a manual safety.

You seem to looking to start an argument, 92fstech.
 
Posts: 6780 | Location: Virginia | Registered: January 22, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
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quote:
Originally posted by Broadside:

Did you read anything else I posted? Or did you just stop at that?

If you had continued to read on, you would have seen I posted a list that shows half the NATO countries use service pistols that don't have manual safeties. Five are using the P320 without a manual safety.

You seem to looking to start an argument, 92fstech.


Not trying to start an argument, and I did read the whole post. But the rest of your post doesn't in any way indicate your thoughts on the matter, or explain why you were shocked by the idea in the first place.
 
Posts: 10259 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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How many countries that don’t use a manual safety, also carry a round chambered?

When I first started shooting, I followed along with the consensus that manual safeties were bad, and the just keep your finger off the trigger mindset.


The more experience I’ve obtained, the more I prefer pairing “keep your finger of the trigger” with a manual safety or hammer, or some other way to physical block the firearm from discharging. Such as the SCDC for Glocks.


The above are not absolutely necessary for safe carry, but they can help.
 
Posts: 539 | Location: Texas | Registered: September 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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triple post!… this is why you need a manual safety and no round chambered!
 
Posts: 539 | Location: Texas | Registered: September 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
double post
 
Posts: 539 | Location: Texas | Registered: September 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 92fstech:
Not trying to start an argument, and I did read the whole post. But the rest of your post doesn't in any way indicate your thoughts on the matter, or explain why you were shocked by the idea in the first place.


I wasn't shocked by the idea. I was surprised by my findings. I started with a preconceived notion based on the U.S. Military's history with the 1911, the Beretta 92 and the Sig P320 that militaries around the world would opt for a manual safety on service pistols. The information I found does not support my initial opinions on subject.
 
Posts: 6780 | Location: Virginia | Registered: January 22, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Broadside:

I wasn't shocked by the idea. I was surprised by my findings. I started with a preconceived notion based on the U.S. Military's history with the 1911, the Beretta 92 and the Sig P320 that militaries around the world would opt for a manual safety on service pistols. The information I found does not support my initial opinions on subject.


Gotcha. I misunderstood your post.
 
Posts: 10259 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Left-Handed,
NOT Left-Winged!
posted Hide Post
The M17/M18 manual safety is as good as any 1911 and easily disengaged with a high thumbs grip. It is much better than the M9 slide mounted safety. I have no issue with it at all. And if you really don't like it you can carry off-safe and use the safety for re-holstering.

It would be interesting to see how many P320 MS pistols have AD's. The safety blocks the trigger bar but the sear and firing pin block are not directly affected. A defect that affects the sear and firing pin block would affect the safety pistols as much as the non-safety pistols.
 
Posts: 5117 | Location: Indiana | Registered: December 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
And if you really don't like it you can carry off-safe and use the safety for re-holstering.


I have a LC9s that I use that way. Right now the safety is on. When I saddle up to go out, I disengage the safety as I holster it. Thereafter DAO.

I have been known to "forget" the safety on a 1911. Not on the draw and fire "Stroke", that is reflexive. But just every once in a while I have drawn, safety off, fired; and then set the safety as I come off the gun to peer at the target. And failed to disengage it for the next shot from low ready. Sure, what I ought to do is "ride" the safety and I usually do, but not always 100% of the time. So I compete with a 1911 and carry that LC9s or a Glock and my "house gun" is Sig DA/SA.

I think the safest weapon for the low to moderately trained user is the DA/SA. For a little science fiction, how about one with a timer. Draw and fire DA, maybe some SA, then stop to scan for other threats. If you don't fire another SA shot within a specified time limit, it decocks itself.
 
Posts: 3373 | Location: Florence, Alabama, USA | Registered: July 05, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by TheNewbie:
How many countries that don’t use a manual safety, also carry a round chambered?


Per MS Copilot:

For NATO countries that use service pistols without a manual safety, the doctrine regarding carrying a round chambered generally emphasizes the importance of proper training and adherence to safety protocols. Here are some examples:

1. **Canada** (SIG Sauer P320): The Canadian Armed Forces train personnel to carry the P320 with a round chambered, relying on the pistol's internal safeties and rigorous training to ensure safe handling [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

2. **Denmark** (SIG Sauer P320): Danish military personnel are trained to carry the P320 with a round chambered, emphasizing the importance of trigger discipline and proper holstering techniques [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

3. **Estonia** (Glock 19): Estonian forces carry the Glock 19 with a round chambered, focusing on comprehensive training to ensure safe handling and use [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

4. **Finland** (Glock 17): Finnish military doctrine supports carrying the Glock 17 with a round chambered, with extensive training on safe handling and the pistol's internal safeties [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

5. **France** (Glock 17 Gen5 FR): French military personnel carry the Glock 17 Gen5 FR with a round chambered, relying on the pistol's internal safeties and strict training protocols[1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

6. **Latvia** (Glock 17): Latvian forces carry the Glock 17 with a round chambered, emphasizing the importance of proper training and adherence to safety procedures[1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

7. **Lithuania** (Glock 17): Lithuanian military personnel are trained to carry the Glock 17 with a round chambered, focusing on safe handling practices and the pistol's internal safeties[1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

8. **Luxembourg** (SIG Sauer P320): Luxembourg's armed forces carry the P320 with a round chambered, with training emphasizing trigger discipline and safe handling [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

9. **Netherlands** (Glock 17): Dutch military doctrine supports carrying the Glock 17 with a round chambered, relying on comprehensive training and the pistol's internal safeties [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

10. **North Macedonia** (Glock 17): North Macedonian forces carry the Glock 17 with a round chambered, focusing on proper training and adherence to safety protocols [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

11. **Norway** (SIG Sauer P320): Norwegian military personnel are trained to carry the P320 with a round chambered, emphasizing safe handling and the pistol's internal safeties [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

12. **Portugal** (SIG Sauer P320): Portuguese armed forces carry the P320 with a round chambered, with training focusing on trigger discipline and safe handling [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

13. **Slovenia** (Glock 17): Slovenian military doctrine supports carrying the Glock 17 with a round chambered, relying on comprehensive training and the pistol's internal safeties [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

14. **Sweden** (Glock 17): Swedish military personnel carry the Glock 17 with a round chambered, emphasizing proper training and adherence to safety procedures [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

15. **United Kingdom** (Glock 17 Gen5): British forces carry the Glock 17 Gen5 with a round chambered, focusing on extensive training and the pistol's internal safeties [1](https://inside.safariland.com/blog/military-service-handguns-around-the-world/).

These doctrines highlight the importance of rigorous training and adherence to safety protocols to ensure that personnel can safely carry and use their service pistols with a round chambered.
 
Posts: 6780 | Location: Virginia | Registered: January 22, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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... This is a good example of the problem with just blindly copy/pasting whatever some AI chatbot says.

What we have right now is not actually Artificial Intelligence. They don't actually think on their own, analyzing queries and crafting reasoned answers based on the data. Instead, they're software scripts called Large Language Models that take a mishmash of what's been fed to them from scraping websites, shove it in a blender, and spew out whatever amalgamation results. Regardless of whether it's accurate or not. They have no ability to judge the accuracy/validity of their statements, or to understand the factors at play in the question. They merely check that the words are put together into a way that mimics human language.

They're effectively bullshit generators at this time, pulling answers out of their ass and confidently answering in a way that sounds good but is not necessarily accurate. (Think of them like your annoying loudmouth know-it-all coworker who thinks they're a self-proclaimed expert on every subject but is really just faking it most of the time and hoping their confident recitation sways their audience into believing their BS.)

That Safariland website it's quoting as its source for confidently declaring that all those countries carrying with a round chambered makes ZERO mention of whether those countries carry chambered/not chambered.

It's completely mute on that subject.

Copilot made that up. It sounds good, it's stated confidently, it appears to make sense, it even has a reference footnote... but it's simply not accurate. The industry term is called a "hallucination", and it's very common with these so-called "AI" chatbots.

So stop relying on chatbots to answer your questions. It's quick and easy, sure. But the probability of whether you're actually going to get an accurate/truthful/non-bullshit response varies wildly.

It's more likely to be accurate than a true random answer generator like a Magic 8 Ball, but not yet accurate enough to trust. Maybe we'll get there someday after further refinement, or this may just a limitation that's intrinsic to this style of quasi-"AI" LLM, in which case we won't get a fully accurate AI until we manage to get to actual true AI that's able to think and reason.


For further reference, from https://www.psypost.org/schola...ng-its-bullshitting/

quote:
Scholars: AI isn’t “hallucinating” — it’s bullshitting

Large language models, such as OpenAI’s ChatGPT, have revolutionized the way artificial intelligence interacts with humans, producing text that often seems indistinguishable from human writing. Despite their impressive capabilities, these models are known for generating persistent inaccuracies, often referred to as “AI hallucinations.” However, in a paper published in Ethics and Information Technology, scholars Michael Townsen Hicks, James Humphries, and Joe Slater from the University of Glasgow argue that these inaccuracies are better understood as “bullshit.”

Large language models (LLMs) are sophisticated computer programs designed to generate human-like text. They achieve this by analyzing vast amounts of written material and using statistical techniques to predict the likelihood of a particular word appearing next in a sequence. This process enables them to produce coherent and contextually appropriate responses to a wide range of prompts.

Unlike human brains, which have a variety of goals and behaviors, LLMs have a singular objective: to generate text that closely resembles human language. This means their primary function is to replicate the patterns and structures of human speech and writing, not to understand or convey factual information.

The term “AI hallucination” is used to describe instances when an LLM like ChatGPT produces inaccurate or entirely fabricated information. This term suggests that the AI is experiencing a perceptual error, akin to a human seeing something that isn’t there. However, this metaphor is misleading, according to Hicks and his colleagues, because it implies that the AI has a perspective or an intent to perceive and convey truth, which it does not.

To better understand why these inaccuracies might be better described as bullshit, it is helpful to look at the concept of bullshit as defined by philosopher Harry Frankfurt. In his seminal work, Frankfurt distinguishes bullshit from lying. A liar, according to Frankfurt, knows the truth but deliberately chooses to say something false. In contrast, a bullshitter is indifferent to the truth. The bullshitter’s primary concern is not whether what they are saying is true or false but whether it serves their purpose, often to impress or persuade.

Frankfurt’s concept highlights that bullshit is characterized by a disregard for the truth. The bullshitter does not care about the accuracy of their statements, only that they appear convincing or fit a particular narrative.

The scholars argue that the output of LLMs like ChatGPT fits Frankfurt’s definition of bullshit better than the concept of hallucination. These models do not have an understanding of truth or falsity; they generate text based on patterns in the data they have been trained on, without any intrinsic concern for accuracy. This makes them akin to bullshitters — they produce statements that can sound plausible without any grounding in factual reality.

The distinction is significant because it influences how we understand and address the inaccuracies produced by these models. If we think of these inaccuracies as hallucinations, we might believe that the AI is trying and failing to convey truthful information.

But AI models like ChatGPT do not have beliefs, intentions, or understanding, Hicks and his colleagues explained. They operate purely on statistical patterns derived from their training data.

When they produce incorrect information, it is not due to a deliberate intent to deceive (as in lying) or a faulty perception (as in hallucinating). Rather, it is because they are designed to create text that looks and sounds right without any intrinsic mechanism for ensuring factual accuracy.

“Investors, policymakers, and members of the general public make decisions on how to treat these machines and how to react to them based not on a deep technical understanding of how they work, but on the often metaphorical way in which their abilities and function are communicated,” Hicks and his colleagues concluded. “Calling their mistakes ‘hallucinations’ isn’t harmless: it lends itself to the confusion that the machines are in some way misperceiving but are nonetheless trying to convey something that they believe or have perceived.”

“This, as we’ve argued, is the wrong metaphor. The machines are not trying to communicate something they believe or perceive. Their inaccuracy is not due to misperception or hallucination. As we have pointed out, they are not trying to convey information at all. They are bullshitting.”

“Calling chatbot inaccuracies ‘hallucinations’ feeds in to overblown hype about their abilities among technology cheerleaders, and could lead to unnecessary consternation among the general public. It also suggests solutions to the inaccuracy problems which might not work, and could lead to misguided efforts at AI alignment amongst specialists,” the scholars wrote.

“It can also lead to the wrong attitude towards the machine when it gets things right: the inaccuracies show that it is bullshitting, even when it’s right. Calling these inaccuracies ‘bullshit’ rather than ‘hallucinations’ isn’t just more accurate (as we’ve argued); it’s good science and technology communication in an area that sorely needs it.”

OpenAI, for its part, has said that improving the factual accuracy of ChatGPT is a key goal.

“Improving factual accuracy is a significant focus for OpenAI and many other AI developers, and we’re making progress,” the company wrote in a 2023 blog post. “By leveraging user feedback on ChatGPT outputs that were flagged as incorrect as a main source of data—we have improved the factual accuracy of GPT-4. GPT-4 is 40% more likely to produce factual content than GPT-3.5.”

“When users sign up to use the tool, we strive to be as transparent as possible that ChatGPT may not always be accurate. However, we recognize that there is much more work to do to further reduce the likelihood of hallucinations and to educate the public on the current limitations of these AI tools.”
 
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