quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:
Modern Day Savage,

Batteries and lights have changed over the last 10 years and now days, most any top tier battery from say Surefire, Panasonic, Sanyo or Duracell will offer very similar performance.

Battery manufacturers know what the primary uses are for 123a batteries and among those are flashlights but to get to the answer you have understand how flashlights have changed.

All 132a batteries produced in the US have an output limit of 1.5amps That bandwidth is set and isn't changing so regardless of name brand, the limit is 1.5.

...

Electronics have changed and nowadays batteries are largely interchangeable. Where you do see a variance is the capacity. Surefire and others are running at around 1,500, 1,500 or even 1,600 so there is increased capacity over lesser brands and never trust Chinese specs on capacity.

Buy based on battery capacity and price and you won't see much of a performance difference between top brands.
...

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
I believe I have read numerous times on the internet (must be true) that their is only ONE USA manufacturer of 123 batteries. It is my understanding, that Surefire, Streamlight, Sanyo, Panasonic, Battery Station, and others, are all made by the same company and just have differing labels placed on them after they are made. I tend to believe this as I have had exact same performance out of every 123 battery I have personally tried from Surefire, Streamlight, Panasonic, and Battery Station.

While it wouldn't surprise me if battery manufacturers have watched the market, learned what applications their end-users are using their batts for, and making improvements to their products, just the simple fact that over the last several years that 123 batts have had different dimensions and some have protection circuits built in and, at least at one time, some were labelled for photo/ camera use and others were labelled for high drain use, seems to indicate that there are at least different 123 designs, and possibly different manufacturers... or at least one sole US batt manufacturer w/ multiple designs for different brands.

I'm not questioning either your knowledge or experience on this topic, but just to clarify what you're both saying... are you saying that these other batt brands are designed and optimized for high drain use such as required by modern EDC LED lights? Even though Surefire is the only one I'm aware of that is specifically labelled for high drain use?

Also, can you confirm that these other high end 123 batt brands have the same 10 year shelf life that Surefire promotes in their advertising?

Do either of you have any recent 123 batt brand comparison reviews you could point me to?

quote:

If you got 10-12 years out of a set of 123 batteries, that a pretty low use light, and I'd stay with Surefire batteries.

My old Surefire LX-2 is rated for a 200/15 output, I know considered low by current standards, which probably helps explain the extended batt life I've had...but yeah, it's fair to call it relatively "low use". It does what I need it to and honestly it's been a trouble-free light, with the exception of the pocket clip, which I've had 3 or 4 break over the years without even applying much force on them....but even then all I had to do was contact Surefire for warranty parts repair and each time they sent me a new clip at no charge, along with some of their swag.

Edited: to correct misspelled word.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Modern Day Savage,

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
I have several thousands dollars worth of flashlights. I like flashlights. I have a spreadsheet that list every battery in my house (hundreds), to include its voltage, the last time I replaced it, and its expiration date.

You Sir, are THE MAN! I thought my son was into flashlights, but he is a mere amateur by comparison. Bravo!

ETA: When I sent him the link pointing him at your post, his response was, "Dang that's hardcore, I aspire to challenge bubbatime's collection one day ."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: slosig,

You are overthinking this. Just buy the least expensive USA made batteries and be done with it.
They are all made by panasonic and the same with the only difference being the wrapper.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:
Modern Day Savage,

Batteries and lights have changed over the last 10 years and now days, most any top tier battery from say Surefire, Panasonic, Sanyo or Duracell will offer very similar performance.

Battery manufacturers know what the primary uses are for 123a batteries and among those are flashlights but to get to the answer you have understand how flashlights have changed.

All 132a batteries produced in the US have an output limit of 1.5amps That bandwidth is set and isn't changing so regardless of name brand, the limit is 1.5.

...

Electronics have changed and nowadays batteries are largely interchangeable. Where you do see a variance is the capacity. Surefire and others are running at around 1,500, 1,500 or even 1,600 so there is increased capacity over lesser brands and never trust Chinese specs on capacity.

Buy based on battery capacity and price and you won't see much of a performance difference between top brands.
...

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
I believe I have read numerous times on the internet (must be true) that their is only ONE USA manufacturer of 123 batteries. It is my understanding, that Surefire, Streamlight, Sanyo, Panasonic, Battery Station, and others, are all made by the same company and just have differing labels placed on them after they are made. I tend to believe this as I have had exact same performance out of every 123 battery I have personally tried from Surefire, Streamlight, Panasonic, and Battery Station.

While it wouldn't surprise me if battery manufacturers have watched the market, learned what applications their end-users are using their batts for, and making improvements to their products, just the simple fact that over the last several years that 123 batts have had different dimensions and some have protection circuits built in and, at least at one time, some were labelled for photo/ camera use and others were labelled for high drain use, seems to indicate that there are at least different 123 designs, and possibly different manufacturers... or at least one sole US batt manufacturer w/ multiple designs for different brands.

I'm not questioning either your knowledge or experience on this topic, but just to clarify what you're both saying... are you saying that these other batt brands are designed and optimized for high drain use such as required by modern EDC LED lights? Even though Surefire is the only one I'm aware of that is specifically labelled for high drain use?

Also, can you confirm that these other high end 123 batt brands have the same 10 year shelf life that Surefire promotes in their advertising?

Do either of you have any recent 123 batt brand comparison reviews you could point me to?

quote:

If you got 10-12 years out of a set of 123 batteries, that a pretty low use light, and I'd stay with Surefire batteries.

My old Surefire LX-2 is rated for a 200/15 output, I know considered low by current standards, which probably helps explain the extended batt life I've had...but yeah, it's fair to call it relatively "low use". It does what I need it to and honestly it's been a trouble-free light, with the exception of the pocket clip, which I've had 3 or 4 break over the years without even applying much force on them....but even then all I had to do was contact Surefire for warranty parts repair and each time they sent me a new clip at no charge, along with some of their swag.

Edited: to correct misspelled word.

You have a lot of stuff going on in that post so let's look at it.

Your light is one you described as old and trusty. I'm hazarding a guess here but if it's more than 10 years old LED technology is much improved and what was high drain then is low drain now.

123a batteries are lithium as you know and the chemical composition of the batteries is largely set too. It's like water - it's only H20. The max flow rate from the battery is likewise set and won't exceed 1.5. AA lithium batteries from Energizer are the same composition but in a different form factor and different capacity but the same chemical composition.

The various sizes of a 123a battery is more of a reflection of the material used or additional capacity. Even the smallest capacity 123a is around 1400 mah and the largest of the name brands (never ever trust Chinese battery specs) is around 1500 mah. If you want to see how wild the mah ratings are on Chinese rechargeables check out Project Farm on Youtube who tested some 18650s, IIRC.

A 10 year shelf life for a lithium battery is not impressive. AA lithium Energizers have a 20 year life and even lowly alkalines are 10 years. Also keep in mind that lithium batteries lose about 1% per year so the loss, assuming proper storage is very little. At the end of year 1 they are down to 99% but at the end of year 2 it's 98.01%, year 3 it's 97.02%, year 4 it's 96.05% and if you run the math out, you're still at 90%.

Name brand top tier all perform about the same. Pick based on price. SF are always a good buy but don't overlook the others. Battery Junction has a great variety and their site lists specs of Tier 2 batteries. I have both and in my SD lights I run the SF, Duracell, Energizer or Panasonic but for everyday stuff like you're doing, have a bunch of Rayovac, and Titanium. These are 90% of the performance of the top brands but at about 3/4 of the price. For a general purpose 80-100 lumen light these are perfect.


If you mentioned it I'm sorry if I can't recall but what kind of SF and what kind of LED head are you running?

I'm in the group that joined candlepowerforums in its infancy and I think I'm one of the early 5% members so early SF lights interest me. I've been using SF since they were called Laser Products and that's prior to being called SF. I have a Laser Products 9P that's still original except for my swapping in a Malkoff LED and now that light is perfect.

Edit - I see you're using an LX 2. That's pretty old but not as old as the original LX that I'm holding in my hand. The LX is an odd light since mine has a different pitch thread on the body and all you can do is just use it.

IIRC the LX2, and even my LX, are not very efficient LEDs and the runtimes are poor, compared with anything new. You probably come out ahead with a new SF flight however if you really want to amp up the efficiency look at the Streamlight Polytac 90 that runs off a rechargeable 18650. 18650 batteries own 123a batteries on any performance level you can think of and they are all rechargeable. Some have the micro USB charger built into the battery (Streamlight and SF do) and the performance is fantastic. Far outperforms any 123a battery. Excellent shelf life too.

I have been using the Battery Station 123s for quite a while and their performance has been very good. And the price cant be beat. When using rechargeables, I too have gone all in on the 18650 system, including a stand-alone charger and maintainer. The Streamlight 18650 battery built-in charging port which I found to be a PITA.

I've started using rechargeable ones. They're cheap enough and even if they don't last as long they're quick and easy to recharge and swap out.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I have been using the Battery Station 123s for quite a while and their performance has been very good. And the price cant be beat. When using rechargeables, I too have gone all in on the 18650 system, including a stand-alone charger and maintainer. The Streamlight 18650 battery built-in charging port which I found to be a PITA.

The ticket is the 18650 batts. They hold a ton of energy and the discharge rate is very little aka they will still be very usable 6 months down the road.

In the 18650 category there is an actual difference between the Streamight and Surefire batteries. The Streamlight don't have the same capacity (2,500 v. 3,500) mah and they don't have the same discharge rate to the point that you can't use Streamlight batteries in a SF light but you can do the opposite.

The SF Fury DFT (have it and love it) puts out 1k lumens on 123a batteries and a whopping 1.5k on the 18650. It's because the battery was designed for high discharge rates and SF had the battery made to their spec. Their battery engineer has a short vid on it on their site. On the other hand, Streamlight doesn't have the same discharge rate and but none of their lights have the same sustained output as the Fury. I've put in the Streamlight 18650 in my Fury and the performance is very poor.

But yes, 18650 batteries are the way to go for quite a few reasons.

I use the Streamlight 18650s only in Streamlight lights. Tenergy for everything else.

...

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:

You have a lot of stuff going on in that post so let's look at it.

Your light is one you described as old and trusty. I'm hazarding a guess here but if it's more than 10 years old LED technology is much improved and what was high drain then is low drain now.

...


A 10 year shelf life for a lithium battery is not impressive. AA lithium Energizers have a 20 year life and even lowly alkalines are 10 years. Also keep in mind that lithium batteries lose about 1% per year so the loss, assuming proper storage is very little. At the end of year 1 they are down to 99% but at the end of year 2 it's 98.01%, year 3 it's 97.02%, year 4 it's 96.05% and if you run the math out, you're still at 90%.

Apparently LED and batt tech has evolved at a far greater rate than my knowledge of them. .

Thank you for the education and for the time and effort you put into answering my questions.

quote:

Name brand top tier all perform about the same. Pick based on price. SF are always a good buy but don't overlook the others. Battery Junction has a great variety and their site lists specs of Tier 2 batteries. I have both and in my SD lights I run the SF, Duracell, Energizer or Panasonic but for everyday stuff like you're doing, have a bunch of Rayovac, and Titanium. These are 90% of the performance of the top brands but at about 3/4 of the price. For a general purpose 80-100 lumen light these are perfect.

As this particular Surefire is my EDC, used for both possible defensive situations and general every day use, my plan is to stick with SF Batts, but I'll keep in mind your other suggestions for future use. At the moment this SF light does what I need it to, and I'm not one to chase the latest new tech as soon as it is released...but, at some point, I expect I'll need to replace or upgrade this light along with my other (old) WMLs.

quote:

If you mentioned it I'm sorry if I can't recall but what kind of SF and what kind of LED head are you running?

I'm in the group that joined candlepowerforums in its infancy and I think I'm one of the early 5% members so early SF lights interest me. I've been using SF since they were called Laser Products and that's prior to being called SF. I have a Laser Products 9P that's still original except for my swapping in a Malkoff LED and now that light is perfect.

Edit - I see you're using an LX 2. That's pretty old but not as old as the original LX that I'm holding in my hand. The LX is an odd light since mine has a different pitch thread on the body and all you can do is just use it.

IIRC the LX2, and even my LX, are not very efficient LEDs and the runtimes are poor, compared with anything new. You probably come out ahead with a new SF flight however if you really want to amp up the efficiency look at the Streamlight Polytac 90 that runs off a rechargeable 18650. 18650 batteries own 123a batteries on any performance level you can think of and they are all rechargeable. Some have the micro USB charger built into the battery (Streamlight and SF do) and the performance is fantastic. Far outperforms any 123a battery. Excellent shelf life too.

I've got an old Streamlight M6-X Tactical Illuminator (halogen) still sitting in it's original box...from back in the early days of WMLs when this was the mega-expensive ultra tactical kit that set us, those who were serious about gun use, apart. Lol

Here is my lowly decrepit old but trusty LX-2, with it's dismal lumen output and laughable run time.

I am going to have to disagree with some of my forum colleagues and tell you that I believe Duracell is a horrible choice for a battery, especially in a high dollar flashlight.
This year I have had two good flashlights, Fenix, trashed by Duracell leakage.

Some Eotech users know to stay away from Duracell due to leakage issues. The actual Eotech owner's manual recommends only Energizers.

quote:

Originally posted by alreadydead:
I am going to have to disagree with some of my forum colleagues and tell you that I believe Duracell is a horrible choice for a battery, especially in a high dollar flashlight.
This year I have had two good flashlights, Fenix, trashed by Duracell leakage.

You have to realize that Duracell is a very large conglomerate. They do not make all of the batteries under the Duracell name.

I would agree that Duracell AA and AAA batteries are the suckiest, trashiest, piece of shit batteries in existence. They are Duraleaks and they WILL destroy your shit.

But a lithium Duracell 123 is not made by Duracell and is quality. Also, the button cell lithium Duracell batteries are also quality.