"Why did the cop have to shoot him so many times?"

October 10, 2018, 08:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
pistols rounds suck - that has been debated and put to rest - we declare the 9 / 40 / 45 / 357 debate over

carry what you shoot well with quality JHPs. period

on another note - question for LE --

how quickly can you deploy the shotgun / AR from the rack? I am surprised he never deployed that...

kinda reminds me of the Miami deal where they pulled right up to the perps 'under-gunned'

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Other officers here can voice their opinions but in my experience, anytime I ever truly needed my gun it was right NOW. I didn't have time to worry about a rifle or shotgun sitting in the car next to me. I had to bail out asap, yank my pistol out of my holster as fast as I could, return fire while looking for some kind of cover.

Have you seen how much crap we have in the front seat area (radios, light/siren box, computers, in car video system, ticket printer)? Trying to get a long gun shoehorned between the front seats out in a "quick" manner ain't going to happen. Hell trying to get the long guns out when doing vehicle maintenance is a pain in the ass. Trust me when I say I am a long gun proponent and anytime I have time I either have it half way out before arriving on scene or grab it IF I have available time (like high risk vehicle stop). Several times it was a LOT easier for me to grab a shotgun instead of the rifle.

October 10, 2018, 09:13 PM

radioman

There was a similar video about a year ago where a cop was up against a guy barricaded in his home. Some domestic or some such thing.

The cop was down to a backup revolver as I recall. Now the cop carries a lot of rounds.

October 10, 2018, 09:17 PM

muzzleloader

quote:
Originally posted by TigerDore:
quote:
Originally posted by Chance:
Interesting that he switched from .45 to 9mm

I have had two former SOCOM guys, one former SEAL and one former 75th Ranger Regiment, both tell me independently they carry 9mm. They prefer more shots, better placed and faster, over the bigger .45 acp. Both served in combat. Both said if you want knockdown, get a long gun.

Truer words were never spoken.

.

October 10, 2018, 09:42 PM

FiveFiveSixFan

quote:
how quickly can you deploy the shotgun / AR from the rack? I am surprised he never deployed that...

In this case, even if he had already released a long gun and it was ready to go on the seat beside him, he would still undoubtedly have had to resort to his Glock as the perp jumped out of his car and immediately began rushing him while firing causing him to have to return fire from inside the patrol car.

October 10, 2018, 10:03 PM

FiveFiveSixFan

quote:
Originally posted by David Lee:
Officer needs to consider a more potant round like .357 Sig or 10mm. His shots seemed to be placed well. How a human can withstand that many hits is beyond me.

That's not always an option. Actually, it's probably seldom an option today. Department regs frequently mandate not only the calibers allowed but what specific weapons can be carried.

When I first started, the department I worked for had no restrictions on either caliber or type of weapon carried. However, for largely political reasons, administrators restricted ammunition, e.g., you could carry a wheel gun in .357 Magnum, but you couldn't carry .357 Magnum ammunition in it. You were required to carry .38 158gr. lead round nose ammunition. Hollow point ammunition of any sort was forbidden. It took years to get those dangerous regulations changed.

October 10, 2018, 10:27 PM

newtoSig765

The video said he emptied his first mag through the windshield. Any idea how long it took his hearing to recover, if at all?

My tinnitus began with an outdoor adventure involving a 4" S&W Highway Patrol, my college roommate, and a box of .357mag ammunition. No hearing protection, but we were outdoors and thought it would be OK.

October 10, 2018, 11:54 PM

9mmepiphany

quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
part 2 of the question -

as you are approaching - can you steer with the left hand and reach over to 'unlock' the rack with your right hand?

i realize you wouldn't do this very often - just wondered if it was possible

Anything is possible, but it is very awkward at best as the rack is usually mounted on the cage/screen behind your right shoulder.

You can't deploy the long gun while in the vehicle and it would be highly unlikely that you'd break off an engagement to holster the gun you are already using and reach for a gun that you can't use until you get outside your car. Once you're outside, most officers aren't going to put away their sidearm to reach back inside to try to extract their long gun

October 11, 2018, 01:57 AM

KMitch200

quote:
Originally posted by FiveFiveSixFan:
quote:
Originally posted by David Lee:
Officer needs to consider a more potant round like .357 Sig or 10mm. His shots seemed to be placed well. How a human can withstand that many hits is beyond me.

That's not always an option.

And that would have made what difference? How many times does it need to be said, "HANDGUN ROUNDS SUCK"?

Playing jerkoff caliber games is unnecessary and pointless.

October 11, 2018, 02:28 AM

FiveFiveSixFan

While handgun rounds may suck, some suck less than others. If my life may be dependent on having the least sucky handgun round available, it's quite likely that I will find the discussion of and advocacy for having the best round possible neither unnecessary nor pointless.

October 11, 2018, 07:11 AM

HayesGreener

I was trained many years ago (before patrol rifles) that the shotgun was my primary weapon and the only reason to go to the handgun was I didn't have the time or warning to get my shotgun out. Unfortunately the first officer in an unfolding event does not have the time or forewarning.

With that said, I have been present twice when suspects were shot point blank right in the 10 ring with 12 ga 00 buck, and although fatal, in both cases the suspect had a couple seconds fight in him before expiring. And no, the shots did not move the bodies, they just crumpled.

Shot placement is king. However, other than a centerfire shot to the brainstem, you cannot predict with certainty the effect gunfire will have on the human body, hence multiple shot drills in LE training.

One can have too much ammo only 1). When on fire; 2). when swimming

October 11, 2018, 09:54 AM

zoom6zoom

Unless you're a civilian. Then just having seven or ten rounds is all you need.

October 11, 2018, 10:48 AM

357fuzz

With all the crap in the cars the vertical mounts between the seats suck bad when you are trying to un-ass your rifle quickly.

We have several cars with the horizontal mount above the head and it will now be in all the cars from now on I believe. Much better to get to quickly. I have an 11.5” Colt Commando which is even easier to get in and out of the car quickly.

If you have time snatch that rifle. Sometimes it’s not in the cards.

October 11, 2018, 10:51 AM

jsbcody

quote:
Originally posted by HayesGreener:
I was trained many years ago (before patrol rifles) that the shotgun was my primary weapon and the only reason to go to the handgun was I didn't have the time or warning to get my shotgun out. Unfortunately the first officer in an unfolding event does not have the time or forewarning.

With that said, I have been present twice when suspects were shot point blank right in the 10 ring with 12 ga 00 buck, and although fatal, in both cases the suspect had a couple seconds fight in him before expiring. And no, the shots did not move the bodies, they just crumpled.

Shot placement is king. However, other than a centerfire shot to the brainstem, you cannot predict with certainty the effect gunfire will have on the human body, hence multiple shot drills in LE training.

One can have too much ammo only 1). When on fire; 2). when swimming

My initial training and the first patrol sergeant had the same philosophy. Sarge always deployed with a shotgun. My second sergeant was an idiot who tried to write me and another guy up for deploying our long guns during person with a gun calls; we actually saw the subject had a pistol from a distance, in both cases turned out to be an modified airsoft. This idiot actually told us we shouldn't ever deploy with long guns AND had to give the bad guy the first shot. The write ups were rejected and overturned.....oh and he was promoted the following year to Lieutenant and eventually changed the policy to having a supervisor's permission before deploying long guns. I left that agency shortly after that, one of many reasons. Today (yes in this world and time with everything going on) that agency's policy and procedure is that IF suspect has pistol, no long gun for you. If the suspect has a long gun THEN you can deploy with a long gun WITH supervisor's permission.

October 11, 2018, 12:16 PM

pulicords

quote:
Originally posted by HayesGreener:
Shot placement is king. However, other than a centerfire shot to the brainstem, you cannot predict with certainty the effect gunfire will have on the human body, hence multiple shot drills in LE training.

When I was involved in my last OIS, there were six officers who fired a total of 66 shots over a matter of seconds before the suspect shooting at them ceased to be a threat. Without that CNS incapacitation, it's often impossible to discern whether or not the offender has been struck by even one bullet of many fired, until he falls to the ground (which can sometimes take minutes to occur). Uninformed people and even medical professionals often rely upon (dramatic) media representations of how they expect people should act when struck by gunfire. It's as unrealistic of an expectation as it is to criticize officers for carrying "lots" of ammunition or using it when a threat needs to be dealt with.