quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Surprisingly, ABC "News" did not mention the good guy finally stopped things with his own gun.

Neither did either of my local stations which carried the story. Just said "he shot himself."

quote:

Originally posted by John Steed:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Surprisingly, ABC "News" did not mention the good guy finally stopped things with his own gun.

Neither did either of my local stations which carried the story. Just said "he shot himself."

Wow what a difference!
Local TV showed a witness interview.
Witness said the Good guy stood with his foot on the BG's neck with his gun trained on him until the cops arrived.

BG was a BIG dude, and a body builder.

Am I reading correctly that he only shot white people?
Apparently the FBI is now involved.
"Civil rights violation" or such.

quote:

Originally posted by cparktd:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
Why did this guy have to run to retrieve his gun? Are firearms not permitted in a place of worship in Tennessee?

No law against it unless the church is posted. It's the church's call.

Our church here in Madison is FULL of them!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
We have an organized security team at my church. They are part of a nation-wide 'church security network' that shares intel, methods, practices/procedures, etc. There are church security summits where representatives from all over the country meet to share/learn/discuss security.....

Could you please share info and/or a name of the organization?

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
we have several churches in this area that have armed security,

not talking Security Guards or off duty Police, I mean members that have decided to organize and carry at church as unofficial security detail,

I was at a 3 day pistol class with such a group. All were carry permit holders, and most had some nice toys. Out of the six of them, only one could shoot. The rest were a danger to themselves, and moreso to the rest of us on the range. One of the individuals even pointed the muzzle into his own chest when yelled at by the instructor for muzzling the rest of the line. At the end of it, I felt more in danger knowing that these bananas had guns.

If your church is going to have an organized armed security detail, make sure they have the proper qualifications. At the very least that means basic and intermediate pistol handling courses, although a few use of force seminars might not hurt. Having a group of armed security yahoos with no training whatsoever might be more criminally negligent than leaving the place totally undefended.

quote:

Originally posted by JJexp:
If your church is going to have an organized armed security detail, make sure they have the proper qualifications. At the very least that means basic and intermediate pistol handling courses, although a few use of force seminars might not hurt. Having a group of armed security yahoos with no training whatsoever might be more criminally negligent than leaving the place totally undefended.

Do you know what it would cost to have an organized, professional armed security team on the pay roll, with the requisite training and liability insurance? Probably a MILLION plus dollars. Salary ($$$$), annual training ($$$$), high dollar insurance policy, IF you can find one ($$$$).

Only the largest churches have that kind of budget. You'll find the rest of them, if they are smart, will operate an underground, unofficial, security team. Where they can deny any liability, and just say Tommy Usher was a private citizen, and carried a gun unknown to church leaders, and as such the church liability should Tommy Usher shoot an innocent would be greatly reduced.

My church has attendance levels at about 1200 people or so, and I know for a fact that there are likely 15-30 guns, or more, in the church. I count 5-8 off duty cops in attendance, plus all the regular Joes that conceal carry. The kids Sunday school area (100 plus kids) is guarded by a "unofficial" church security guard that is 100% armed with a concealed pistol. I doubt anyone else notices, but I can see the pistol outline under the shirt every Sunday.

Don't recall who, but someone here asked me in a previous thread why our church has an organized security program with rotating security. These type events would be the why. And besides the "on duty" crew, at least half a dozen are armed in the pews every week.

quote:

Originally posted by Outnumbered:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
We have an organized security team at my church. They are part of a nation-wide 'church security network' that shares intel, methods, practices/procedures, etc. There are church security summits where representatives from all over the country meet to share/learn/discuss security.....

Could you please share info and/or a name of the organization?

Possibly referring to CSA, or Church Security Alliance:

https://www.churchsecurityalliance.com


...though there are other similar organizations.

My church has had an organized security effort consisting of members and off-duty local officers for some time. Though thankfully we have never encountered a shooting situation, we have definitely had some "interesting" encounters.

Shifting himself really took the ambition out of him. Goes to show that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. I relize a guy went and retrieved a gun, but he most likley would have to shoot the scum if he didn't already shoot himself.

My 6000-member church typically has 2 or 3 off-duty uniformed cops on site for Sunday services, but (it being Texas) I'm fairly certain there are regular congregants carrying, as well. The church does have a couple of small ineffective (not complying with legal requirements) "no gun" signs, but those are probably just to keep the fraidy-cats quiet and the insurance folks happy. I don't know of a formal security group within the church, though.

flashguy

A friend told me that in the Philippines, the Knights of Columbus is primarily made up of active and retired military, intelligence and police. There the Knights serve as security against attacks by the local Hadjis.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Fenris,

The news, today, is reporting the shooter was a legal immigrant from Sudan...

(fox news)

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JJexp:

...You'll find the rest of them, if they are smart, will operate an underground, unofficial, security team. Where they can deny any liability, and just say Tommy Usher was a private citizen, and carried a gun unknown to church leaders, and as such the church liability should Tommy Usher shoot an innocent would be greatly reduced...

My church has an VERY underground security team, no one knows about it except me. There may be others carrying, but I kinda doubt it as us "gun guys" tend to know each other. Problem is there are four weekend masses, I only attend one.

My church has NO security plan (call 911), I suspect the Diocese pretends "it can't happen here" and thus avoids dealing with the issue.

I was shocked to see this headline in the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com...773cd5a14_story.html

Masked gunman rampages through Nashville church; usher uses personal weapon to subdue shooter

By Brandon Gee and Tim Craig September 24 at 10:58 PM

NASHVILLE — A gunman wearing a ski mask stormed into a Nashville-area church on Sunday, shooting seven people, including the pastor, before attacking a church usher who ultimately subdued him with a personal weapon, Nashville police said.

The shooting — which left a 39-year-old woman dead — occurred shortly before noon at Burnette Chapel Church of Christ in Antioch, Tenn., about 12 miles southeast of downtown Nashville. Police identified the shooter as Emanuel Kidega Samson, 25, of Tennessee, a Sudanese native who they said is a legal resident of the United States and apparently had attended worship services at the church in recent years. Police said Samson will be charged with murder and attempted murder.

Don Aaron, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department, said Samson drove up to the church and shot and killed a woman who was standing near her vehicle in the parking lot. The shooter — who police said was armed with two handguns — then entered the church through a rear door, shooting and wounding six people inside.

t some point, the gunman also pistol-whipped a church usher, causing “significant injuries” to the man, Aaron said. The usher, 22-year-old Robert “Caleb” Engle, confronted the gunman, police said, and during a struggle, Samson was wounded by a shot from his own gun. The usher then ran to his car and retrieved a handgun, police said.

Aaron said the usher ensured the gunman did not make any more movements until officers arrived. “It would appear he was not expecting to encounter a brave individual like the church usher,” Aaron said.

Police Chief Steve Anderson praised Engle for intervening: “We believe he is the hero today.”

The shooting comes a little more than two years after Dylann Roof, a white supremacist, shot and killed nine people inside an African American church in Charleston, S.C. Roof is awaiting execution after being convicted in federal and state cases.

Authorities on Sunday did not release a motive for the Antioch attack. But in a statement, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Nashville said it had opened a federal civil rights investigation.

“The FBI will collect all available facts and evidence,” said David W. Boling, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney’s Office. “As this is an ongoing investigation we are not able to comment further at this time.”

Police identified the deceased victim as Melanie Smith, 39, of Smyrna, Tenn. The six surviving victims, all described as being between the ages of 60 and 83, are being treated at Nashville-area hospitals, as is the usher. The church’s pastor, Joey Spann, 60, and his wife, Peggy, 65, were among the injured.

Smith was a longtime church member with two teenage children, said Linda Grimes, 51, of nearby La Vergne, who is friends with Smith’s sister. “She was a devout Christian and she loved God,” Grimes said. “It’s a sad day for everyone here in the flesh, but she’s face-to-face with her maker. I’m sure of that.”

Police said Samson was taken to a hospital to be treated for a gunshot wound to the chest. He was later released and was expected to appear before a judge late Sunday night.

Police said Samson moved to the U.S. from Sudan in 1996. Nashville has a vibrant Sudanese community, and the city’s churches frequently host and help care for refugees.

Aaron said the gunman left his vehicle idling after he pulled up to the church, and he was wearing a “neoprene mask, best described as a ski mask.” About 50 parishioners were inside the church at the time, police said.

Police said the mask concealed the shooter’s identity, but when police told parishioners who had been arrested, several gasped because they remembered him attending the church multiple times one or two years ago.

Jimmy Merritt, 68, of La Vergne, said he was near the front of the sanctuary when he heard the shots. He thought they were fireworks but then saw “folks started going down” and, after the shooter was subdued, saw “people lying everywhere and blood everywhere.”

Merritt said he met and spoke with Samson when he attended the church a few years ago. He said Samson and three other men who came together seemed like nice guys.

Doug Ramey, 45, of Murfreesboro, Tenn., said he met with Engle, the usher, at TriStar Skyline Medical Center, where he was being treated for injuries including a separated shoulder. Ramey said Engle told him he sprang into action after hearing gunshots inside and outside the church.

Engle told Ramey that he approached the shooter thinking he had his handgun on him, but he realized that he didn’t and instead engaged in a hand-to-hand struggle. After Samson was shot in the struggle, Engle’s father stood guard over him while Engle went to get his firearm from his vehicle. When he returned, Engle put his gun on Samson and held him down with his foot, Ramey said.

“Robert said the guy didn’t say a word,” Ramey said as he stood at the police barrier at the church on Sunday afternoon, waiting for Engle’s girlfriend, who remained with other worshipers as police continued to gather evidence. “He had a mask on the whole time.”

Shortly before the shooting, Samson appears to have left cryptic messages on what appeared to be his Facebook page.

“Everything you’ve ever doubted or made to be believe as false, is real. & vice versa, B.,” said one message, apparently posted shortly before the attack.

“Become the creator instead of what’s created. Whatever you say, goes,” another read.

Samson’s other recent posts dealt with fairly routine matters, including photographs of what appeared to be his physical progression as a body builder and concerns over the hurricanes threatening the United States.

Aaron said authorities are working on determining a motive for the shooting but are not ready to release it publicly.

“There are certain things that have come to our attention that are under investigation, but that remains to be announced,” Aaron said.

A massive police presence remained at the Burnette Chapel on Sunday afternoon, with a police officer standing guard on Pin Hook Road a quarter mile from the church, turning away motorists.

The church is in Antioch, a working-class neighborhood and one of Nashville’s most diverse. Located in a rural area in the southeastern corner of Nashville’s combined city-county boundary, the church also serves La Vergne in neighboring Rutherford County, where auto factories are among the region’s largest employers.

On social media, the church has posted inclusive messages and photographs showing a congregation that reflects the diversity of the surrounding neighborhood, which is majority white, but also includes sizable black, Hispanic, and foreign-born populations.

In a statement, Nashville Mayor Megan Barry said the shooting was a “terrible tragedy.”

“My heart aches for the family and friends of the deceased as well as the wounded victims and their loved ones,” Barry said. “My administration, especially Metro Nashville police, will continue to work with community members to stop crime before it starts, encourage peaceful conflict resolution and promote nonviolence.”

It's amazing to see how breaking news comes out. I first read the gunman shot himself in the head and died, then he shot himself in the leg, then he accidentally shot him self in the face and lived and now.. during the struggle with the usher shot himself in the chest. One thing I do know for certain, he is alive because I saw a picture of him being walked out of the PD in hospital scrubs. That usher deserves what ever good comes his way.

There was an interview on Fox News this morning with a former police official, who predicted that elements of the liberal media would not report that the usher used his own gun to subdue and hold the perp until police arrived, so as not to lend credence to the "good guy with a gun" principle. Sure enough, not a word about the usher having a gun on CNN.com.

quote:

Originally posted by Outnumbered:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
We have an organized security team at my church. They are part of a nation-wide 'church security network' that shares intel, methods, practices/procedures, etc. There are church security summits where representatives from all over the country meet to share/learn/discuss security.....

Could you please share info and/or a name of the organization?

Here is one:

https://www.usconcealedcarry.c...ch-becomes-a-target/

This guy here, Carl Chinn, was personally involved in our church shooting in 2007 (the shooting happened before I showed up, but I've met Carl, and he's a really good guy). He is heavily involved in church security issues:

http://www.carlchinn.com/

Here is the website for the National Organization of Church Security and Safety Management - their next conference is August 3-4, 2018, but they should have contact info on their website (especially after incidences such as occurred this weekend).

http://nocssm.org/


Our pastor was interviewed recently and asked why we have security. Some 'church people' tend to think that having armed security on campus shows 'lack of faith.' Well, NOBODY bats an eye at smoke detectors, fire alarms/drills, and sprinkler systems (whether or not they may be mandated by law), as these precautions are just 'common sense.' Few people would take a person seriously if that person advocated doing away with all these fire detection/prevention items under the guise of 'living by faith.' They could easily say "God will protect us from fire," as many imply by their attitudes about the threats of church shootings.

However, shootings, abductions/kidnapping, assaults of various types, and disruptions of peaceful assemblies are FAR more likely in this day and age than fires. However, many 'church people' VIOLENTLY oppose armed church security. After my church's shooting, many people left the church, saying it wasn't right to have armed security (I would love to ask them if they would have preferred the DOZENS of dead that surely would have resulted if the shooter had not been confronted by armed security). I read an article where one pastor said "we don't want our congregation to see guns when they walk into church." Well, if done right, nobody will ever see guns in my church that aren't carried by uniformed police officers that also attend every major service.



Here is the interview our pastor gave:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016...-shootings-rise.html

quote:

Sanctuary sentinels: Churches establish armed security teams as shootings rise

The Rev. Brady Boyd believes there is no safer place to be Sunday morning than inside his church.

When Boyd takes to the pulpit at New Life Church, in Colorado Springs, Colo., he and the faithful are well protected. The 30-acre grounds are patrolled by uniformed police officers and an armed safety team made up of about 20 people, including Special Forces soldiers from one of four nearby military bases. One of Boyd's personal security guards is a 24-year veteran Green Beret.

“It’s not like Soviet Russia,” he said. “But you plan for the worst, and pray for the best.”

New Life is one of a growing number of churches around the country that embrace armed security to protect the flock as they worship. A disturbing increase in shootings inside churches, including the shooting last Sunday of a pastor in Dayton, Ohio, and the tragic killing of nine last year at a South Carolina church has prompted extreme measures.

New Life was one of the first in the nation to embrace armed security, and it has already proven provident.

Boyd was in his office at the church following Sunday services Dec. 9, 2007, when a gunman killed two people outside and then entered the building armed with an assault rifle, two handguns and up to 1,000 rounds of ammunition.

The 24-year-old killer, Matthew Murray, was about 80 feet inside the building when his rampage was brought to an end by Jeanne Assam, an armed volunteer security guard.

“I saw him coming through the doors, and I took cover, and I waited for him to get closer,” Assam said afterward. “I came out of cover, I identified myself and engaged him and took him down.”

No one can say how many lives Assam saved, but there were several thousand people on the church's campus after Sunday's services. But Boyd estimated that over a hundred lives were saved.

“I love the people that I pastor," Boyd said ... “I want to protect them."

The argument about whether more guns in the hands of good guys make everyone safer is being played out in public schools, college campuses and workplaces around the country. Critics say a proliferation of firearms ultimately puts more people at risk, and say a house of worship is the last place for weaponry.

The Rev. Kristine Eggert, co-founder of God Before Guns, said there is no credible evidence to suggest that allowing guns inside churches would lead to a safer environment.

Concealed weapons have typically been banned inside churches, either by law or by church policy. But some states, including Arkansas, Louisiana and North Dakota have all passed laws explicitly allowing permit holders to carry concealed weapons in churches.

The Rev. John Elford, of University United Methodist Church in Austin, Texas, told KXAN.com it discourages guns in his pews.

“We feel the open carrying of weapons is part of a violent culture and we kind of want to push back against open carry and gun violence,” he said. “We welcome you to worship. We love the fact that you’re here, but please leave the gun in the car."

Church shootings have been a disturbing fact for decades, according to BuckeyeFirearms.org, which listed instances dating back to 1974. The most notorious shooting occurred last June, when a 21-year-old white supremacist named Dylann Storm Roof gunned down nine strangers at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal church in Charleston, S.C., after praying with them for more than an hour.

Last month, the FBI provided security training for 165 faith leaders at its Dallas headquarters.

"The key is to be proactive and plan for it ahead of time and train for it ahead of time, so in the unlikely event something does happen, you're ready and prepared to deal with that situation," John Smith, risk management director with the Catholic Diocese of Dallas, said.

Michael Lanford, co-owner of SC Firearms Training, provides firearm training and consulting for churches throughout South Carolina. He helps clients hiring outside security teams or to form their own.

Lanford, who has a background in the military and law enforcement, said taking down an active shooter in a church requires unique reactions, and that safety and training are critical.

“When you fire a bullet—from when it leaves your gun, to when it stops—you own that bullet,” he said. “These are split-second decisions.”

Boyd said worshipers may be especially vulnerable because their unarmed presence on Sundays is predictable. That's why domestic confrontations often unfold inside what should literally be a sanctuary.

That was the case in Sunday's shooting in Dayton, where the brother of the Rev. William B. Schooler, 70, fired a fatal shot inside the St. Peter’s Missionary Baptist Church while the choir was still singing.

But Eggert said the Dayton shooting is an example of how guns inside churches would do little to prevent a similar crime.

"It's the person who shoots first," she said. "If someone had a gun inside that church it would not have prevented that."



Edmund DeMarche is a news editor for FoxNews.com. Follow him on Twitter @EDeMarche.

Couple points from parts of the article I bolded:

The first one is just plain WRONG. Our church's shooting incident is PROOF that armed security can make a church safer. Armed security STOPPED the shooter before he could injure/kill more people. There is no virtue in sticking your head in the sand and pretending a threat won't materialize in your church.

The last one is equally stupid - of course, we can't prevent EVERY act of violence or necessarily stop that first shot (though, I've read accounts where security DID stop a guy who had a backpack with guns and ammo who was probably going to go on a mass shooting). However, armed security can make sure that the perp can't get off a SECOND shot.



Besides shootings (we've not had one while I have attended), security personnel help find/reunite lost children, assist in medical issues, provide security for parking lots (many thieves target vehicles parked in churches, as there are hundreds of cars (many unlocked) and they know the people will likely be inside for 1-2 hrs straight), and a variety of other day-to-day issues.

If I just saw some maniac kill a bunch of people I know or are friends with it would be hard to "hold him at gunpoint".

At that point I really don't care of his motives or reasons, or whether he was having a bad day or he was hearing voices or anything else. There is no doubt of his guilt, you just saw him kill a bunch of people, people who are your neighbors.

I think the usher should have unloaded into that fucker and saved society from spending one extra second on him. No medical expenses trying to save him so he could be punished later, no hundreds of thousands of man hours wasted in court, no millions of dollars spent in incarceration over decades before he's actually punished.

I would say about 10% or so of the people at our Sunday service carry. Including our Preacher, myself,and even several elderly woman. I seem to have become the go to "Gun-guy" of our Church. And I am always happy to help out with minor gunsmithing chores and cleanings. I am very happy to do it.