This reminds me of a similar movement in the 70s and early 80s. Needless to say, the government won and a good number of people including congressmen ended up in prison, IIRC.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:

chellim1, I must respectfully disagree with your position on this. You are citing the Declaration of Independence. That document did not found or establish our current government. That was done by the Constitution. The purpose of that government is very succinctly stated in the preamble:

quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice , insure domestic Tranquility , provide for the common defence , promote the general Welfare , and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Broadside,
OK, I'll set aside the Declaration of Independence for the moment and focus on the Constitution, which you have cited.

The Constitution is the "nuts and bolts" of how to organize the government. It reinforces the purpose spelled out in the Declaration.

Lincoln called the Constitution the silver frame to the golden apple of the Declaration....

So... I still say:
"The majority of these "services" that the people either cannot or will not provide as individuals" consist of wealth transfer programs which are antithetical to the founder's vision of the purpose of government, which is basically to preserve individual liberty."

It's right there in your quote:
establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity...

All of those functions are legitimate and in furtherance of securing the Blessings of Liberty.

However, I do understand that the phrase "promote the general Welfare" has been bastardized as a catch-all for the government to do anything.

But that idea is clearly against everything else in the document. Roads and bridges and post offices "promote the general Welfare". Social security, medicare and medicaid and welfare are transfer payments which DO NOT "promote the GENERAL Welfare". They promote the SPECIFIC welfare of certain identified people.

The income tax is a confusing beast. To understand it you must take the time to read the actual enabling statutes, the 4 Organic Laws, and a number of court cases that clarified the nature of the tax. Not necessarily in that order. You are best off not paying attention to anything but the actual black letter of the law and the critical Supreme Court cases.

Here is one very important section to read and understand from the 1938 statute:

"Sec. 54 RECORDS AND SPECIAL RETURNS
(a) By Taxpayer. - Every person liable to any tax imposed ....

(b) To Determine Liability to Tax - Whenever in the judgment of the Commissioner necessary he may require any person, by notice served upon him, to make a return, render under oath such statements, or keep such records, as the Commissioner deems sufficient to show whether or not such person is liable to tax under this title."

You can review this section of the law by going here: USCode Statviewer and typing in 52 for the Vol: and 477 for the page and then click on "Get Document". It always helps to see the actual law on the books as provided by Congress.

Are you liable to tax under title 26? How do you know?

For the record, I consider the income tax laws to be completely constitutional and appropriate as it is written. Unfortunately, it is very badly misunderstood and as a result grossly misapplied by those who profit from it.

A) This is both ugly, and Southern, but every time you read “taxpayer” swap it for “n——r”

At this point, if you’re “too wealthy” to be the mob, and aren’t in the crony class, that’s what you are.

It’s just a new form of holding people as chattel. Admittedly, Biden is senile, but the only justification for POTUS to even mention an “unrealized capital gains tax”is that we’re just property of the cronies.

B)legal, and constitutional, doesn’t make it right.

One of the most meaningful phrases in jurisprudence is “the power to tax is the power to destroy”

The issue becomes finding the most general, least able to be specified tax.

If we need it. I think the O&G royalties off the gulf cover the military budget. Once drilling happens off the Atlantic as well, that would cover any legitimate other expenses.

I like the idea of a small interest in every public company, going to the government. Eliminate the SEC, etc and just give the government a tiny stockholder position.

Deregulating capital should cause a significant increase in size and diversity of the capital market, and the government would benefit from increased private wealth/dividends etc.

It would also provide a lever to push back against abusive local taxes.