I will have to read the book. Definitely the greatest generation.

Kirk Douglas and Richard Harris starred in "The Heroes of Telemark."
Good WWII action movie.

quote:

Originally posted by GarandGuy:
There's a great miniseries about this called "The Heavy Water War." If I remember right it's four parts and I think very well done. Its subtitles but worth the watch. It was on either Hulu or Netflix.

Second this.

Great mini-series. Very well-done.

This woman was not hard to look at:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1217808/?ref_=tt_cl_t20

IIRC she played the plant manager's wife.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sig209,

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by MRMATT:
Imagine what might have been. The Germans would have had the bomb and V2 rockets with which to launch them.

I highly doubt that whatever bomb they would have developed would've been capable of being put on a V2 rocket.

The B-29 was the only American bomber that could carry our nukes. They weighed in the neighborhood of 10,000lbs each, IIR, whereas the V-2 could only carry about 2000lbs payload.

I hear that a lot - that the Germans could have put nukes on the V-2. It would be decades before even the Americans could miniaturize a nuke enough to fit it on a small Scud-sized missile like the V-2.

I finished a VERY comprehensive book about the Manhattan Project this month:

The Making of the Atomic Bomb

It started, chronologically, in the late 1890s, and basically gave a history of nuclear physics that ultimately led to the bomb (it's an 800 page book, and didn't even get to WWII until around the 500 page range, and the Trinity blast took place around 670).

It discussed the heavy water situation pretty well. My take-away was that the Germans failed to build a bomb because the US got the best scientists (many of whom were Jewish and fled Europe because of Hitler's anti-Semite laws). The German scientists were good, but not good enough.

There was a LOT of uncertainty about the exact details that would be required to make an atomic weapon in the early 1940s, so Heisenberg may or may not have purposefully misled the Germans about how much Uranium was required. Even Teller and Openheimer didn't know how much their bombs would yield (before Trinity, they estimated it would have a yield of anywhere between 1 and 50 KT - the Uranium Hiroshima bomb was around 12.5KT and the Plutonium Trinity/Nagasaki bombs were about 18.5KT).


After the heavy-water plant was finally disabled for good, the Germans were shipping their remaining supplies to Germany to continue production (apparently, they needed heavy water to make more heavy water). The Norwegians sank the ferry it was on in deep water. This killed several fellow Norwegians, but they felt it was worth the cost to prevent, once and for all, the Germans from getting the bomb.

I had seen some documentary somewhere claiming the Germans actually detonated an atomic bomb, but I cannot believe that they could have done so. The Trinity blast lit up the skies in Albuquerque and broke windows in Alamogordo (the Army had to publish a fake story about a munitions dump accident), and Germany doesn't have that many wide-open space far from witnesses who would have seen and felt such a test. Also, the Manhattan Project cost over $2 Billion (in 1940s money) and was the largest defense project of all time (until the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter came along). The Germans simply lacked the brainpower, manpower, and facilities to make such a weapon work. Besides, such an effort would have required hundreds of highly skilled people to be involved, almost all of whom would have blabbed to the Allies after the European war was over.


I found that book to be an excellent read. I only understood about 2/3 of it, as it was VERY detailed in explaining the science behind the bombs (I am no physicist). It sounded like the scientists involved really did it for the sake of 'science' (to quote Jeff Goldbloom from Jurassic Park: "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should"). Many of the top scientists on the project had Nobel Prizes. Their driving motivation was to have a counter in case Germany made the bomb - if both sides had it, maybe the Germans would not use it. Once Germany surrendered, nobody else in the world had a prayer of making a weapon before the war was over (the Russians and Japanese all had projects, but they were barely in the initial theoretical stages). Even after the Germans surrendered, they pressed forward, more out of inertia and 'for the sake of science' than anything else. This explained why so many of the scientists didn't want to actually use the bomb on humans (they proposed having a Japanese delegation witness a detonation on an uninhabited island or something). Of course, the military saw things differently.

Towards the very end, there was one last attempt by the author to excuse the scientists' role in ushering in the Atomic Age - he said the scientists didn't "invent" the atomic bomb; they simply "discovered it." In that, they only discovered the processes already existing in nature that allowed for such a chain reaction. I really had to laugh at this. No, it was the scientists who *invented* the atomic bomb; it was the military that used it. I don't buy any attempt to excuse away the scientists' role in the arms race that has dominated human affairs for the past 70 years (an arms race that many of the Manhattan Project scientists predicted and fought to prevent). Even today, many people hold 'scientists' in an almost reverential regard, while they look at the military as a bunch of knuckle-dragging antagonists bent on destruction and conquest. Scientists gave us the bomb; they cannot disavow their corporate responsibility.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
< snip >
Even then the books I’ve read pointed out that after Nagasaki we had one bomb (or perhaps it was none) left.
< snip >

My reading indicates the US had no additional bombs available after Nagsaki because we had used the entire supply of Pu-239 manufactured at Hanford in the Trinity and Fat Man bombs. Hiroshima used U-235.

In fact it took another year to amass the Pu-239 needed for the Able and Baker tests at Bikini Atoll in 1946. Those were bombs 4 and 5, and the device slated for the Charlie test in 1947 (but never used) was bomb 6.

It wasn't until 1948 that we had three additional devices, of a new design, to be tested during Operation Sandstone.

As for the heavy water raid, I have no idea if they prevented the Germans from achieving an atomic bomb, but I do know they were extraordinarily brave and resourceful men, to whom the world owes admiration and recognition.

All six episodes on Amazon Prime, tho at $3 each.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Georgeair,

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
I do know they were extraordinarily brave and resourceful men, to whom the world owes admiration and recognition.

Absolutely!

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Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
tac,

it's funny you asked that. I wondered about him too.

The article says that 23 y.o. Joachim Ronneberg was mission commander.

Joachim Ronneberg is now the mission's only living survivor aged 98.

I was wondering if front left was Ronneberg

That would be Jens Paullson who was the leader of the Grouse team.

Thank you, Sir.

tac

quote:

Originally posted by SIG 229R:
I am extremely interested in anything having to do with the second world war. I just last night started watching the mini series Winds Of War on You tube.

Highly suggest reading John Tolands books. His 2 book set abouWW2 from the Japanese point of view is excellent. "The Rising Sun - The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire" https://smile.amazon.com/Risin...%22The+Rising+Sun%22 Make sure when you order that you are getting both volumns.

Also, right now I'm reading Tolands 2 volume set on Adolph Hitler. He interviewed Hitlers surviving translators, secretaries and associates to put together a great look at a complex and flawed personality. Good work, not amazing like The Rising Sun, but solid.

Thank you for the heavy water read, great stuff!

Another vote for the miniseries. Really well done.

Ronneberg at 96

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/1...clear-ambitions.html

“There were so many things that were just luck and chance,” he said of his 1943 sabotage mission that blew up a Norwegian plant vital to Nazi Germany’s nuclear program. “There was no plan. We were just hoping for the best,”

the whole mission would have been very different had he not decided on a whim to go to the movies and then a series of pubs in England before parachuting into Norway in February 1943.

during a day off from training in Cambridge, England, in early 1943, he went to a movie theater and then happened “entirely by chance” to walk by a hardware store selling heavy-duty metal cutters. He decided to buy a pair on the off chance they might come in handy, and he took them on his sabotage mission.

Without this happenstance purchase, Mr. Ronneberg said, he and his men would never have been able to gain entry to and destroy the heavily guarded heavy water production plant at Vemork, in southern Norway. The handsaw that British planners had intended for use on a heavy padlock on the plant’s side gate, he said, would have taken too much time, made too much noise and alerted Nazi guards. The success of the mission “was mostly luck, definitely,” he said, smiling at his memories of a nighttime raid that, until the very end, had seemed a suicide mission.

Once inside a hall containing the heavy water production, Mr. Ronneberg planted two strings of explosive charges provided by Britain’s Special Operations Executive. He said he decided at the last minute to cut fuses designed to burn for two minutes so that they lasted only 30 seconds. This, he said, gave his men just enough time to get out safely, but made sure they would still be close enough “to hear the bang” and know “we had done our job.”

But it took years before Mr. Ronneberg came to understand the exact purpose and importance of the job. All the British told him before dropping him onto a snow-covered Norwegian mountain, he said, was that a row of pipes at the Vemork plant needed to be destroyed.

The original Medal of Honor game had a mission where you attacked a heavy water plant or stole some plans or something.

Tagged for future reading. Looks good.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

My reading indicates the US had no additional bombs available after Nagsaki because we had used the entire supply of Pu-239 manufactured at Hanford in the Trinity and Fat Man bombs. Hiroshima used U-235...

One was almost on the way. From "The Making of the Atomic Bomb," by Richard Rhodes:

Groves had reported to Marshall that morning that he had gained four days in manufacture and expected to ship a second Fat Man plutonium core and initiator from New Mexico to Tinian on August 12 or 13. "Provided there are no unforeseen difficulties in manufacture, in transportation to the theater or after arrival in the theater," he concluded cautiously, "the bomb should be ready for delivery on the first suitable weather after 17 or 18 August." Marshall told Groves the President wanted no further atomic bombing except by his express order and Groves decided to hold up shipment, a decision in which Marshall concurred.

Fascinating story.

just finished the book "The Winter Fortress".

What a remarkable story.

Sigmund, thanks for the OP, and

bama, thanks so much for the recommendation on this book

"but if you succeed, it will live in Norway’s memory for a hundred years.”

and here we are reading about it 75 years later.

"You have to fight for your freedom and for peace. You have to fight for it every day, to keep it. It's like a glass boat; it's easy to break. It's easy to lose"

- Joachim Ronneberg

(still alive today)

I'll add Winter Fortress to my reading list. Thanks OP and Bama.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
The book Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare also does a good job covering the training, preparation, and execution of the raid in one of its chapters.

I'm reading Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare right now, and I'm really enjoying it. I like reading about the covert operations the Brits carried out during the War. And to that end, Operation Mincemeat (about the Allied invasion of Sicily) and Double Cross: The True Story of the D-Day Spies are both interesting reads. The lengths they went to to divert the Germans' attention from Normandy is staggering.

It is truly an amazing story that reads like a novel. It's incredible how they were able to plan and carry out this mission given the limitations of the time period.

PS: I haven't read the book 'Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare' - I'm adding it to the list! Thanks!

Mathematics was the difference. The German Scientist tasked in find out if graphite would work as well as or better than heavy water, screwed up and nixed graphite. We know the American team used graphite instead of heavy water.

While Hahn and Strassman split the atom, based on Fermi's theories (his noble prize in '34 I think), Hahn who was life-long friends with Lise Meitner, let her know of his results, which Meitner passed on to the American team - extremely valuable knowledge.

The Germans were not that far behind - rumor has that they had a dirty bomb / some sort of test go boom on them.

As far as Normandy - the Germans had a good feeling about that Normandy was the 1st choice.

D-Day was won because of American Airpower. Logistically the Germans just could not get what was needed to win. It was also good fortune that the area commander was killed - Dollmann.

The Germans for instance were not able to conducts and effective arieal reconnaissance over Normandy until August when an Arado 234B literally zipped in and zipped out on its first combat mission of the war.

Avalon Hill came out with a great game called the Longest Day. It's all about logistics and Airpower. It's frustrating as the German commander to have extremely powerful full strength combat units at your disposable, but forced to commit them piecemeal in to the front to to allied air power.

Lastly, do not underestimate the plot to kill the Feuhrer and the success of Normandy due to internal german sabotage.

quote:

Originally posted by icom706:
The Germans were not that far behind - rumor has that they had a dirty bomb / some sort of test go boom on them.

Unless you can refute virtually everything in the book Heisenberg’s War: The Secret History Of The German Bomb by Thomas Powers, yes, they were. In fact the Germans weren’t even close.

As for rumors, that’s an absolute new one on me—but I suppose that 70+ years after the war and despite all the efforts made by the Allies immediately to determine just how far along the Germans were toward the Bomb, perhaps it was just overlooked until now. Where did you get it?