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Perception
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Saw that range featured somewhere else some time ago.

What I wonder about, though, is something that was discussed in an NRA American Rifleman article many years back. Someone was inquiring about establishing a range that was somewhat similar because the backstop was a very high wall with a highway not far behind it. There would have been virtually no chance of a direct shot hitting anything on the roadway, but what the author of the NRA response warned about was the possibility of a bullet’s lightly grazing the very top edge of the wall and being directed downward toward the road.

That’s something I’ve wondered about ever since, and although I’m not sure I can picture what mechanism would cause such a deflection, if it’s a valid possible phenomenon, why couldn’t it happen at this Swiss range? In fact, if it is, it would be more likely than in the situation described in the question to the NRA because the deflection angle would be much less.

For something like that to be a danger would of course require a bullet’s hitting a very precise spot and then being directed at a passing vehicle at a precise moment, but possible?


The only thing I can think of is if you skimmed the top of the wall just perfectly the round might be diverted- like when a bullet is diverted downward shooting into a car through a windshield.



"The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford, "it is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them. They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards."
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard, then the wrong lizard might get in."
 
Posts: 3595 | Location: Two blocks from the Center of the Universe | Registered: December 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Scuba Steve Sig
Knowing is Half the Battle
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What if you had an underpowered cartridge that cleared the wall but fell behind it? Or a negligent discharge with the barrel up firing in an arc that terminated on the road? I'm pretty sure no insurance company in the US would insure this.
 
Posts: 2621 | Location: Iowa by way of Missouri | Registered: July 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
tacfoley
half-genius,
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Here is Bloke on the Range's version - shows some good shooting, too, especially of some really old rifles with diopter sights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5capbhKlVA&t=282s
 
Posts: 11472 | Location: UK, OR, ONT | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
car541
my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
... what the author of the NRA response warned about was the possibility of a bullet’s lightly grazing the very top edge of the wall and being directed downward toward the road.
Bullet diffraction? Light, sound, and radio waves diffract. I don't think solids do. ICBW. I suppose what water and air do around edges can be thought of as similar to diffraction.


Probably a similar concern as to why some hollow point designs deflect downward when striking a windshield. Since a surface catches the windshield below the center of mass of the bullet, the rotational moment swings it downward.

Also, generally bullets do very unpredictable things after they impact anything.


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Posts: 2465 | Location: Texas | Registered: September 27, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
JoseyWales2
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I wonder how long this range has been in operation?


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Posts: 586 | Location: Missouri | Registered: October 17, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
gearhounds
Wait, what?
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by car541:
quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
... what the author of the NRA response warned about was the possibility of a bullet’s lightly grazing the very top edge of the wall and being directed downward toward the road.
Bullet diffraction? Light, sound, and radio waves diffract. I don't think solids do. ICBW. I suppose what water and air do around edges can be thought of as similar to diffraction.


Probably a similar concern as to why some hollow point designs deflect downward when striking a windshield. Since a surface catches the windshield below the center of mass of the bullet, the rotational moment swings it downward.

Bullets are able to do that because they can penetrate the glass and redirect because it becomes the path of least resistance after it begins to break through- the thickness of the glass vs. plowing through a flat plane of a fairly strong laminate.

https://www.quora.com/When-a-g...-rather-than-upwards

It could never ricochet up off of concrete, then change to a downward path.



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Posts: 15924 | Location: Martinsburg WV | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
tacfoley
half-genius,
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quote:
Originally posted by JoseyWales2:
I wonder how long this range has been in operation?


It was built in 1998 - https://www.jungfrauzeitung.ch/artikel/194447/

Time for ANYTHING to have gone pear-shaped.

Note -so far, NOTHING has gone pear-shaped. Why? Gun discipline and training - a very high proportion of the club members are or were military, as is common in Switzerland.

Also - the rifle club has 160 members. Around 90 have an official license from the Swiss Shooting Association, and Edwin Karlen, president for the last five years, estimates that 60 to 70 train regularly. Note that the serving military, reservists AND police use this range for their annual compulsory qualification - the 'Obligataire', with service ammunition issued on the spot, and empties returned to the armourer.
 
Posts: 11472 | Location: UK, OR, ONT | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
tacfoley
half-genius,
half-wit
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by car541:
quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
... what the author of the NRA response warned about was the possibility of a bullet’s lightly grazing the very top edge of the wall and being directed downward toward the road.
Bullet diffraction? Light, sound, and radio waves diffract. I don't think solids do. ICBW. I suppose what water and air do around edges can be thought of as similar to diffraction.


Probably a similar concern as to why some hollow point designs deflect downward when striking a windshield. Since a surface catches the windshield below the center of mass of the bullet, the rotational moment swings it downward.

Also, generally bullets do very unpredictable things after they impact anything.


The only ammunition permitted on this range is Swiss service calibres of 5.56 NATO and 7.5x55 Swiss GP11 for veteran shooting with StGw57 and earlier service arms. In general. Swiss ranges do not allow handloaded ammunition to be used. So, no hollow point stuff, not even soft-point.
 
Posts: 11472 | Location: UK, OR, ONT | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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