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| half-genius, half-wit |
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semi-reformed sailor |
Very cool. Wonder what the distance is? "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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| Freethinker |
Saw that range featured somewhere else some time ago. What I wonder about, though, is something that was discussed in an NRA American Rifleman article many years back. Someone was inquiring about establishing a range that was somewhat similar because the backstop was a very high wall with a highway not far behind it. There would have been virtually no chance of a direct shot hitting anything on the roadway, but what the author of the NRA response warned about was the possibility of a bullet’s lightly grazing the very top edge of the wall and being directed downward toward the road. That’s something I’ve wondered about ever since, and although I’m not sure I can picture what mechanism would cause such a deflection, if it’s a valid possible phenomenon, why couldn’t it happen at this Swiss range? In fact, if it is, it would be more likely than in the situation described in the question to the NRA because the deflection angle would be much less. For something like that to be a danger would of course require a bullet’s hitting a very precise spot and then being directed at a passing vehicle at a precise moment, but possible? ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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| Purveyor of Fine Avatars  |
300 meters "I'm yet another resource-consuming kid in an overpopulated planet raised to an alarming extent by Hollywood and Madison Avenue, poised with my cynical and alienated peers to take over the world when you're old and weak!" - Calvin, "Calvin & Hobbes" | |||
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Nullus Anxietas |
Bullet diffraction? Light, sound, and radio waves diffract. I don't think solids do. ICBW. I suppose what water and air do around edges can be thought of as similar to diffraction. "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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Wait, what? |
I’ve never heard of ricochets moving in the direction of the object they strike. We’re probably all aware of how ricochets in general work, unlike what is portrayed in the movies. When I went through the academy, our firearms instructor did a demonstration- he set a standard target on its side and fired at the concrete floor at about 3, 10, and 15’ feet from it. All 6 rounds made double taps on the target, with minimal variation at all distances- and in debilitating hit areas. When bullets ricochet they “jump up” and then return to a path more or less parallel to the last one. It was eye opening when your whole life of TV and movies up to that point gave the impression that ricochets can bounce in all sorts of crazy directions. “Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from a virus they got vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.” - author unknown | |||
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| half-genius, half-wit |
300m - it is used by the military, civil police, reservists and veterans to shoot the annual 'obligataire', the compulsory qualification shoots. It would be unlikely in the extreme for ANYBODY who shoots there to actually hit the wall - you are actually shooting UP to the targets, BTW. | |||
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| Husband, Father, Aggie, all around good guy!  |
In 2008 had the good fortune to be able to shoot at a Swiss range in/near Geneva. I stayed the weekend after a business trip and met up with a local gun club member I befriended online before the trip. The Geneva area range was 300m for rifle and had the same target tracking system. The range in Geneva unlike the range in the video was set up for standing sitting and prone firing positions. A foldable surface was used for prone firing, but folded out of the way for standing. At the Geneva range you shot through a "silencer" a large metal tube that extended out from the range house and was lined with sound deadening material (think of a quilted insulation material). I shot the FASS 90 (550), Stgw 57 & K31 at the rifle range and the p210 at the 25m pistol range attached. The Swiss firearms were all fantastic shooters. Afterwards we enjoyed some cold ones and they showed me their collection. They really love American guns, M1 Garand and WWII era are especially beloved. The M4 however was their new attraction with the gulf wars then still ongoing. Amazing experience, loved Switzerland. HK Ag | |||
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| Smarter than the average bear |
I don't see how it would be possible for a bullet to hit the top of the wall and be deflected downward, at leat not with any of its forward energy. The only possibility I could imagine is that it could hit the top of the wall and be deflected upwards, then possibly FALLING downward onto the roadway. In that case it would have the energy of a falling projectile, and that energy would depend on how high it ended up before the fall. It's hard to tell from the video, but if the top of the wall sloped down toward the target relative to the shooting position, there would be no way for the bullet to contact the top of the wall. | |||
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Optimistic Cynic |
If the bullet grazes the top of the wall it might be slowed enough, and gravity would do the rest. Bullet drop is affected by the length of time in flight. However, would it retain enough energy to do damage? I'm thinking probably not, nut no way to know for sure without doing the math. Something else I found interesting was that the range official in the video indicated that the range is used for rifle qualification of active duty soldiers. Interesting that they can qualify solely from prone position. | |||
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| Member |
leave it to the Germanics to take something simple and make it complicated  (of course i realize they have to work with the constraints / terrain available) ----------------------------- Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine  |
Only the Swiss could be that pragmatic. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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Lost |
I also saw that video last year. Pretty cool. Neat targeting system they have. I'm glad he got a bullseye. I would also believe that a direct hit on the top surface of the safety wall is geometrically impossible. Were a bullet to have a low enough velocity to skip off the top of the wall and fall on the intervening roadway, assuming it had enough momentum to even make it that far, it would have far too little energy to cause appreciable damage. | |||
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| Help! Help! I'm being repressed!  |
I want to say I saw it on Bloke on the Range's channel. | |||
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| half-genius, half-wit |
Correct. | |||
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| I'm entitled to this Title |
I was shooting steel with an LEO buddy once, and I had a very large fragment of a .45 slug ricochet back and hit me in the sternum. It left a blood blister. I could not believe it; and we were the only two on the range. It was eye-opening.  | |||
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| Freethinker |
Yes, thank you. That would more accurately describe the supposed phenomenon. I may research the question more that I have a better way to describe it. ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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| Lost |
I believe on a quantum level that solid objects do exhibit wave-like properties such as diffraction. Obviously it would be on such a minute scale that it would have no practical bearing on the gross ballistic characteristics of a bullet in flight. It's been quite a while since I studied quantum physics, however, if someone more knowledgeable wishes to chime in. | |||
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Member |
 --------------------------------------- It's like my brain's a tree and you're those little cookie elves. | |||
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| Member |
An object striking a hard flat surface will deflect at roughly the same angle as when struck IF it is deformable; lead is a deformable material and will "skip" and follow curves etc. Riot guns were employed by "skipping" rounds into legs etc. before people bothers with use of force law; we still see that behavior when officers hug up on cover rather than afford themselves some distance. An old but good article on the subject is 16 Journal of Police Science and Administration 4 at 264-267 (1988). (Paywalled, but you can get it at https://archive.org/details/si...6_4/page/n3/mode/2up) If it is NOT deformable and the target is NOT deformable OR absorbing energy, the two objects (projectile and target) will interact by apply forces to each other of equal magnitude and opposite direction. This will cause the projectile to return at roughly the same trajectory as it arrived. (A good summary can be found at https://www1.grc.nasa.gov/begi...tons-laws-of-motion/) | |||
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