These have happened somewhat recently.

In each case the shooter blabs quite a bit to 911 -- significantly incriminating himself. Charges are pending in both cases.

We talk a lot about how to shoot, tactics, SA, what to carry, etc. It's helpful to think about what to do - and what NOT to do - if the unfortunate event occurs requiring you to fire in SD.

This case a guy shoots at and kills - what some have called - a man among gang members who have threatened him from his yard.

http://www.wral.com/trial-set-...l-shooting/17331416/

This case a guy shoots a man who he questioned about stealing his $200k boat - turns out the guy is not the BOAT thief - but along with his partner - was on a property engaging in larceny there.

http://wncn.com/2018/02/13/nc-...unt-for-stolen-boat/

In each case - immediate statements by the men to 911 / police have not helped them.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sig209,

From the first story:

Chad Cameron Copley, 39,...told a 911 dispatcher on Aug. 7, 2016 that he was "locked and loaded" and planned to "secure the neighborhood" because people attending a nearby house party were vandalizing the area and shouting profanities.

Investigators said Copley fired a shotgun through a window from inside his garage, striking Kouren-Rodney Bernard Thomas, 20, who was outside.

After the shooting, Copley's wife called 911, and he told a dispatcher that he was "trying to protect myself and my family" because the people outside had firearms and that he had simply "fired a warning shot as required by law."

W
T
F
?

Based on the details in those news reports, neither one of those situations sounds like very clear-cut righteous self-defense shootings. Obviously, we don't have all the facts just from the news summaries, but these both trend towards bad shoots. Both have major problems besides just rambling to 911 afterwards.

In one, a man confronted a guy who he thought had stolen his boat several days before. The shooter was aiming a gun at the victim and "the gun went off", killing the guy he was confronting. This one sounds like it could be a fairly clear-cut screw-up.

In the other, a guy called the police because his neighbors were having a party, told the dispatcher that he was "locked and loaded" and planned to "secure the neighborhood", then fired a "warning shot as required by law" () through a window from inside his garage that ended up striking and killing one of the partygoers outside. This one seems to have a higher chance at being an actual defensive shooting, since the victim was on the shooter's property, and some person or persons from the party had reportedly brandished weapons at some point during the night. But even then, the "warning shot gone wrong" angle certaintly hurts his self defense story. Even his defense team recognizes that, and reportedly "would not take a formal position on whether Copley shot [the victim] by accident or on purpose".

Agreed. Some clearer thinking could have prevented both of these incidents.

Where were the police during each of these?

The first guy didn't wait for them - and the second guy called them AFTER he had taken matters into his own hands and 'accidentally' killed someone.

Both situations are sad on all sides.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Based on the details in those news reports, neither one of those situations sounds like very clear-cut righteous self-defense shootings...

I do not disagree.

And for that reason - the fact that both made unwise statements to 911 is MORE relevant - not less relevant.

No doubt they have made their lawyers' tasks - already an uphill battle - particularly difficult.

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It was the acts, not the statements.
I don't think anyone is saying that it would be better if they hadn't talked and got away with it, are they?

I don’t think there is anything a reasonable armed citizen can learn from either case. Neither were a case of self defense and then saying the wrong thing. They were about doing wrong things and being honest about it to the dispatcher in the second case, telling a stupid lie in the first.

I think you can learn what NOT to do. They are great examples of that.

quote:

Originally posted by rusbro:
From the first story:

Chad Cameron Copley, 39,...told a 911 dispatcher on Aug. 7, 2016 that he was "locked and loaded" and planned to "secure the neighborhood" because people attending a nearby house party were vandalizing the area and shouting profanities.

Investigators said Copley fired a shotgun through a window from inside his garage, striking Kouren-Rodney Bernard Thomas, 20, who was outside.

After the shooting, Copley's wife called 911, and he told a dispatcher that he was "trying to protect myself and my family" because the people outside had firearms and that he had simply "fired a warning shot as required by law."

?

Lots of interesting ways to speculate here. I hope the wife's statement about the husband's intent is not controlling. That is, maybe the wife thought it was a warning shot whereas the husband fired intentionally. (By the way, shooting through a window or door may meet requirement the NC Castle Doctrine for the use of deadly force. We really don't have enough info to reach a conclusion.)

quote:

Originally posted by SR:

quote:

Originally posted by rusbro:
From the first story:

Chad Cameron Copley, 39,...told a 911 dispatcher on Aug. 7, 2016 that he was "locked and loaded" and planned to "secure the neighborhood" because people attending a nearby house party were vandalizing the area and shouting profanities.

Investigators said Copley fired a shotgun through a window from inside his garage, striking Kouren-Rodney Bernard Thomas, 20, who was outside.

After the shooting, Copley's wife called 911, and he told a dispatcher that he was "trying to protect myself and my family" because the people outside had firearms and that he had simply "fired a warning shot as required by law."

?

Lots of interesting ways to speculate here. I hope the wife's statement about the husband's intent is not controlling. That is, maybe the wife thought it was a warning shot whereas the husband fired intentionally. (By the way, shooting through a window or door may meet requirement the NC Castle Doctrine for the use of deadly force. We really don't have enough info to reach a conclusion.)

Maybe there is a law requiring a warning shot. If so, it seems monumentally stupid to me, and like it might open the state up to liability (in my non-lawyer opinion).

Just saying you're "Locked and loaded" makes it sound like you're looking for trouble. I dunno it might just be me

quote:

Originally posted by lcbjr77:
Just saying you're "Locked and loaded" makes it sound like you're looking for trouble. I dunno it might just be me

The line about securing the neighborhood is much worse, IMO. If you shoot somebody who's entered your home, saying L&L seems irrelevant, to me. If you say you're going to secure the neighborhood, and then shoot somebody outside your home, well, I can see where that would complicate legal matters.

quote:

Originally posted by SR:
Lots of interesting ways to speculate here. I hope the wife's statement about the husband's intent is not controlling. That is, maybe the wife thought it was a warning shot whereas the husband fired intentionally.

I think you misread the article. The wife called 911 after the shooting but HE (the shooter) told the dispatcher that he fired a warning shot:

quote:

After the shooting, Copley's wife called 911, and he told a dispatcher that he was "trying to protect myself and my family" because the people outside had firearms and that he had simply "fired a warning shot as required by law."

quote:

Originally posted by rusbro:

Maybe there is a law requiring a warning shot. If so, it seems monumentally stupid to me, and like it might open the state up to liability (in my non-lawyer opinion).

There is no requirement for a warning shot in NC.

Not for the cops and not for the citizenry.

Joe Biden is the only guy that fires warning shots. You have a right to remain silent, take advantage of that. If you are facing any criminal charges talking to the police will never help your case, you are getting arrested anyway. Tell them you intend on cooperating completely, after you talk to your attorney. Even if you have a right to stand your ground, or a live in presumption state, retreat if you can, it could save you everything. Even if you beat the criminal charges you most likely going to get sued. Anything you say can be used against you, anything you say to the police that is exculpatory could be ruled here say and be inadmissible .

There have also been some shootings in the last few months in NC that we’re rul self defense. I’ll try to link them sometime tomorrow.

But not telling the 911 calltaker more than is necessary, and to not make any statement after a shooting other than asking to speak with an attorney, are generally good ideas. I followed the one over the boat. There was a lot of dumb involved in that, but less talking without a lawyer may have resulted in a slightly different outlook.

UPDATE:

The trial for Mr. Copley is underway. Attacking - among other things - his choice of 'extra deadly' shotgun ammo. He used Winchester personal defense ammo.


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The shotgun round that killed a Raleigh 20-year-old was ‘better at killing people’
BY JOSH SHAFFER

http://www.newsobserver.com/ne...rticle200583619.html

The 12-gauge shotgun shell that killed 20-year-old Kouren-Rodney Bernard Thomas contained a slug along with pellets – a round that is “better at killing people,” according to testimony Friday.

The murder case against Chad Cameron Copley entered its second day with testimony from Raleigh police Detective Eric Emser. Copley, a Northeast Raleigh father of two, has acknowledged firing the fatal shot after calling 911 about a “bunch of hoodlums.”

Emser described finding a shell and a broken window inside Copley’s garage on Singleleaf Lane, which he described as a cluttered “man cave” with a sofa and a collection of beer bottles. The window had shattered glass on the driveway outside the garage, he said, suggesting a shot had been fired through it. The Winchester shell included a slug meant for self-defense and hunting large game.

Assistant District Attorney Patrick Latour asked if the slug was “better at killing people” and Emser agreed from the stand. Later Friday, Latour concluded the state’s evidence, clearing the way for Copley to take the stand and testify in his own defense likely sometime next week.

The case of the 2016 shooting has drawn comparisons to the Trayvon Martin case in Florida and raised questions about how far a homeowner can go to protect his property from what he perceives to be a threat. It also has raised questions about Copley’s state of mind at the time of the shooting and whether the killing was premeditated because of the comments recorded at the beginning of the 911 call.

On Thursday, testimony described Copley calling emergency dispatchers to let them know he was “locked and loaded” and on his way to “secure” his neighborhood from what he alleged were a “bunch of hoodlums.”

At the very beginning of a 911 tape, Latour told jurors Thursday, is a section recorded before dispatchers come on the line. “What it records Chad saying,” Latour said Thursday, “is ‘I’m going to kill ‘em.’ ”

‘I’m going to kill ’em’ heard at start of 911 call made by homeowner accused of murder

Chad Cameron Copley, 40, is charged with murder in the Aug. 7, 2016, death of 20-year-old Kouren-Rodney Bernard Thomas. The trial began on Thursday, February 15, 2018 at the Wake County Justice Center. On Friday, an agent with the City-County Bureau of Investigation said she found a large pool of blood near the Copleys’ mailbox at the curb. The distance from the front door of the house to the street measured 50 feet, Carla Foran said.

Emser said he arrived at the house on Singleleaf Lane and found a Mossberg shotgun propped against a wall in a hallway downstairs. It still had about four rounds inside. Upstairs, he testified, he found a rifle leaning against the wall in another hallway. The screen from a second-story window was out and laying in the yard. Emser said he found no sign of forced entry at the house.

He testified that after the shooting, he interviewed Jace Williams – one of the people who organized the party. Williams told him that the party had been announced on social media, and that roughly 20 people were there after it started around 10 p.m. But later, roughly 40 more people arrived whom he did not know.

Williams said he thought the unknown party-goers might have been in a gang, but he saw no weapons and did not know for certain, Emser said. They were drinking much of the party’s alcohol, and they departed without incident after being asked to leave, he said.

“Was he ever able to tell you that gang members were there?” Latour asked.

“To me, it appeared more speculation,” Emser said.

Testimony continues Monday.

------------------------------------------------

Plot thickens in the Copley case as the defense takes it's turn:

one responding officer is assaulted by party-goer:

http://www.wral.com/defense-wi...l-shooting/17354035/

Gun found in one of the party-goers vehicles:


http://wncn.com/2018/02/19/wit...h-hoodlums-shooting/

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Update:

Copley (homeowner) convicted first degree murder.

http://www.wral.com/jury-convi...illing-man/17363056/

He testified in his own defense and obviously was not found to be credible.

Lots of lessons here.

--------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
Lots of lessons here.

"Don't use deadly force unless you or someone else is in imminent danger of serious physical injury or death" is the big one.

"Don't lie" is another good one.

These two examples aren't so much about what to do/what not to do if you have to fire in self defense... They shouldn't have been shooting in the first place.