Just to be clear, like other search warrant applications, if the documentation shows that the statutes and policies have been complied with, law enforcement is entitled to get a warrant.

FISA applications prohibit use of unverified uncorroborated facts. If nonverified uncorroborated claims are used, that’s in the DOJ. The very highest levels, Director, Deputy AG, etc., sign off on that. A judge has no means to go behind the documents which are facially complete and compliant.

quote:

The other is the product of imagination unsupported by articulable facts.

ouch.

"we didn't ask anything"

DoJ wrote that no hearings were held for the Carter Page warrants

"all four times"

DoJ wrote no hearings were held for the Carter Page FISA applications

"we just rubber stamped lies"

The FISC approved the warrants. The applications included multiple lies. The court did not hold hearings.

A tad more than unsupported imagination

There is a 43 page court document on this FOIA request.

Judicial Watch requested transcripts of FISC hearings for warrants against Carter Page and Michael Flynn.

DoJ said they could respond regarding Carter Page because the Nunes memo had been partially declassifed to inform that there was a FISA warrant on Carter Page. So DoJ could report there were no hearings for the Page case.

For the Flynn case, DoJ wrote they could neither confirm or deny the existence of such records. National security and all that.

"A judge has no means to go behind the documents"

I don't know what that means. The FISC staff reviews the application. They will often have phone conversations w the govt to seek additional info.

An analysis is made and presented to a FISC judge. The analysis may recommend more info be provided.

My snarky comment about "rubber stamp" reflected that these 4 judges made a huge decision to spy on the Trump campaign and there is no indication they pushed to be sure the application was strong. The warrant against Page opened a door to anyone communicating w Page or who had communicated w Page.

Why have these judges not called these scumbags back in and read them the riot act about giving them bullshit applications? Makes me think that they were in on it too, they act like they have no part in it. The woods procedure for verification was not followed, and the previous adminastration allowed the tools of intelligence to be turned on American citizens to invalidate a Presidental election.

quote:

Originally posted by nighthawk:
Why have these judges not called these scumbags back in and read them the riot act about giving them bullshit applications? Makes me think that they were in on it too, they act like they have no part in it.

It does seem strange that we've heard nothing from these judges, given the sketchiness of the supporting FISA documents and the magnitude of the apparent corruption.

Not a peep.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:

quote:

The other is the product of imagination unsupported by articulable facts.

ouch.

"we didn't ask anything"

DoJ wrote that no hearings were held for the Carter Page warrants

"all four times"

DoJ wrote no hearings were held for the Carter Page FISA applications

"we just rubber stamped lies"

The FISC approved the warrants. The applications included multiple lies. The court did not hold hearings.

A tad more than unsupported imagination

There is a 43 page court document on this FOIA request.

Judicial Watch requested transcripts of FISC hearings for warrants against Carter Page and Michael Flynn.

DoJ said they could respond regarding Carter Page because the Nunes memo had been partially declassifed to inform that there was a FISA warrant on Carter Page. So DoJ could report there were no hearings for the Page case.

For the Flynn case, DoJ wrote they could neither confirm or deny the existence of such records. National security and all that.

"A judge has no means to go behind the documents"

I don't know what that means. The FISC staff reviews the application. They will often have phone conversations w the govt to seek additional info.

An analysis is made and presented to a FISC judge. The analysis may recommend more info be provided.

My snarky comment about "rubber stamp" reflected that these 4 judges made a huge decision to spy on the Trump campaign and there is no indication they pushed to be sure the application was strong. The warrant against Page opened a door to anyone communicating w Page or who had communicated w Page.

Sundance at The Conservative Treehouse is getting bogged down also in this “no hearing” business. “No hearing” doesn’t mean the clerk received the paperwork, had the judge sign the order on her way to lunch and tossed it in the file.

The court has a way to ask questions of the DOJ staff preparing and filing the application, but no means of hauling in for direct questioning the declarants, in this case Steele probably and others who have personal knowledge of the facts described in the application constituting probable cause.

It appears that each order was signed by a different judge, so either the paperwork met the standard each time, or perhaps there is a vast left wing conspiracy.

Judge Rosemary Collyer is a senior judge, District of Columbia, was appointed by George W. Bush. She is the current presiding judge of FISC. She signed the original order.

Judge Michael Mosman, Oregon District, was appointed by George W. Bush. He signed the first renewal.

Judge Anne Conway, Middle District of Florida, is a senior judge appointed by George W. Bush. She signed the second renewal.

Judge Rayond Dearie, Eastern District of New York, is a senior judge appointed by Reagan. He signed the final renewal.

I notice in looking into these judges that in two wikipedia listings, there is a quote with reference to those FISA applications, from Andrew McCarthy whose views I respect.

quote:

Among those many sources, the application cites the Steele dossier, leading former assistant US attorney and legal commentator Andrew McCarthy to write, in reference to the fact that the renewal submission contained unverified allegations, an idea he had previously considered “crazy” (“It turns out, however, that the crazies were right and I was wrong,“) that “the newly disclosed FISA applications are so shoddy that the judges who approved them ought to be asked some hard questions[13],” and “what happened here flouts rudimentary investigative standards.

Link

I never claimed a vast left wing conspiracy that the judges participated in.

"My snarky comment about "rubber stamp" reflected that these 4 judges made a huge decision to spy on the Trump campaign and there is no indication they pushed to be sure the application was strong"

McCarthy:

"the newly disclosed FISA applications are so shoddy that the judges who approved them ought to be asked some hard questions[13],” and “what happened here flouts rudimentary investigative standards"

The common point is that for a very critical warrant, that declared a Donald Trump campaign adviser was a Russian foreign agent, the judges didn't appear to push to be sure the application was true.

The paperwork didn't meet the standard. It was very much unverified. Comey and Clapper were saying it was unverified in Jan 2017.

Comey in testimony was asked why he thought the dossier was true. Comey said because he trusted C Steele based on past performance.

Andrew McCarthy tore that rational apart in his article

https://www.nationalreview.com...-fbi-steele-dossier/

FISA Applications Confirm: The FBI Relied on the Unverified Steele Dossier

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The main fault falls on the FBI for lying in the applications.

In addition to lying, what they presented was unverified.

So we need to see the full application to fully understand this.

But I'll borrow McCarthy's words:

"the judges who approved them ought to be asked some hard questions"

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
I never claimed a vast left wing conspiracy that the judges participated in.

"My snarky comment about "rubber stamp" reflected that these 4 judges made a huge decision to spy on the Trump campaign and there is no indication they pushed to be sure the application was strong"

McCarthy:

"the newly disclosed FISA applications are so shoddy that the judges who approved them ought to be asked some hard questions[13],” and “what happened here flouts rudimentary investigative standards"

The common point is that for a very critical warrant, that declared a Donald Trump campaign adviser was a Russian foreign agent, the judges didn't appear to push to be sure the application was true.

The paperwork didn't meet the standard. It was very much unverified. Comey and Clapper were saying it was unverified in Jan 2017.

Comey in testimony was asked why he thought the dossier was true. Comey said because he trusted C Steele based on past performance.

Andrew McCarthy tore that rational apart in his article

https://www.nationalreview.com...-fbi-steele-dossier/

FISA Applications Confirm: The FBI Relied on the Unverified Steele Dossier

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The main fault falls on the FBI for lying in the applications.

In addition to lying, what they presented was unverified.

So we need to see the full application to fully understand this.

But I'll borrow McCarthy's words:

"the judges who approved them ought to be asked some hard questions"

I assume McCarthy is working from the same disadvantage we are, not having seen the unredacted documents.

That said, the applications were signed as required by the Attorney General or acting Attorney General or Deputy Attorney General as well as the Director of the FBI or Deputy Director certifying that all statutory requirements are met. I assume that requirement is there to be relied on by the court. Without seeing the specifics, I’m not sure how much criticism can be justified, other than they turned out to be wrong, of course.

just want to point out a coincidence, not trying to draw conclusions

source report:

https://themarketswork.com/201...-the-steele-dossier/

and other reports on FIFA

Christopher Steele earned his credibility w the FBI through his work on the soccer case involving FIFA.

After a long build up, the FIFA case was held Nov - Dec 2017

Steele's FIFA contact was FBI agent Michael Gaeta. Gaeta was head of the FBI Eurasian Organized Crime Unit, which specializes in investigating criminal groups from Georgia, Russia, and Ukraine

"Gaeta, an FBI agent and Assistant Legal Attaché at the US Embassy in Rome, has known the former spy, Christopher Steele—who authored the controversial dossier on then-candidate Donald Trump—since at least 2010, when Steele provided assistance in the FBI’s investigation into the FIFA Corruption scandal over concerns Russia might have been engaging in bribery to host the 2018 World Cup."


Gaeta is reported to be the FBI agent who flew to London for a 5 July 2016 brief by Steele on the first part of the dossier.

The judge overseeing the FIFA case was U.S. District Judge Raymond Dearie

Dearie is also the FISC judge who signed the last extension warrant in June 2017.

small world

to be clear, haven't seen anything that indicates Dearie knew of Christopher Steele from FIFA

Andrew McCarthy reacting to the "no hearings" issue:

In nearly 20 yrs as a prosecutor, and hundreds of warrants, I never had a hearing to get a warrant. I had judges tell me ‘no,’ or tell me I needed to beef up this or that allegation with more solid evidence. But never a hearing.

The argument should be that DOJ & FISA judges have higher duty to follow rules and scrutinize applications because, unlike criminal proceeding where there’s eventual discovery and hearings, that’s all the due process warrant target will ever get.

Should add, fwiw, I do not like FISA, & have always thought judges should not be involved in foreign intel collection. Exec w/ cong’l oversight would be more accountable, and it’s not a judicial process so harms judiciary to be seen as rubber stamp.

This isn't much of a surprise. Just one more FBI dirty trick.

From various reports, part of the FBI justification for the Carter Page FISA warrants came from the 2013 events where 2 Russian spies were telling Page they were Russian business people.

https://www.realclearinvestiga...f_page_as_idiot.html

according to congressional sources who have seen the unredacted FISA warrant:

The FBI cited that 2013 case in its applications to the FISA court

but the FBI omitted from its application to spy on Carter Page the fact that Russian spies had dismissed the former Trump campaign adviser as unreliable – or as one put it, an “idiot” – and therefore unworthy of recruiting

The FBI was aware of Russians’ skepticism that Page knew anything of value or was a significant player because the bureau had recorded them voicing such doubts in a wiretap

Posing as bankers, the Russians first approached Page, then an international energy consultant, at a January 2013 industry symposium in New York City. Concluding that Page possessed little information of value, the Russians soon wrote him off.

“I think he is an idiot and forgot who I am,” the FBI secretly recorded one of the Russians, Victor Podobnyy, saying to another Russian about Page on April 8, 2013. “You get the documents from him and tell him to go fuck himself.”

Page says he was unaware that he was dealing with foreign agents. The document he provided was an academic paper on the future outlook of the energy industry, which was based on publicly available, non-sensitive information.

During its 2013-2016 investigation of the three Russian agents, it portrayed Page as one of many unwitting victims of their tradecraft – including other New York business people, as well as students -- and as someone who was only “interested in business opportunities in Russia." Far from being a target of the FBI probe, Page was merely a witness

The lead agent on the case, Gregory Monaghan, noted in his court filing that the spies posing as bankers never told Page they were “connected to the Russian Government.”

The FBI's attitude toward Page turned hostile after candidate Donald Trump publicly announced his name on March 21, 2016 along with other members of his foreign policy team. Only then was Page treated as a counterintelligence concern

Then, sometime in the “late spring” of 2016, Comey held an unusual briefing concerning Page and the alleged national security risk he posed, with the Obama administration’s highest-ranking national-security officials, who, in addition to Lynch, included National Security Adviser Susan Rice, CIA Director John Brennan, and Director of National Intelligence James Clapper.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Given that set of characters, the FBI "suspicion" about Carter Page was highly likely to have been fed back to the Clinton campaign. Clinton and crew must have thought they hit the jackpot.

I've been surprised no one ever seems to have asked Sen Tim Kaine about the dossier. He was Clinton's VP candidate. With all the congressional comm interviews, someone should have asked Kaine if he had ever heard about Steele and the dossier.

Kaine became VP candidate in July 2016.

FISA Court Orders FBI to Provide "Names" and "Docket Numbers" For 29 Spy Warrant Applications Found to Have Errors

The FISC is ramping up its investigation of FISAgate. The DOJ’s Office of Inspector General on Tuesday said in a report it still has a “lack of confidence” in the FBI’s FISA procedures. Horowitz’s office found errors in all of the 29 FISA applications it reviewed during an audit as follow-up to an investigation of the bureau’s illegal spying of Carter Page. The OIG released a report on Tuesday revealing the FBI’s FISA abuse is still a widespread ongoing problem.

“As a result of our audit work to date and as described below, we do not have confidence that the FBI has executed its Woods Procedures in compliance with FBI policy,” the OIG said in a 17-page memorandum. The “Woods Procedures” were designed to protect American citizens to “ensure accuracy with regard to … the facts supporting probable cause” after recurring abuses where the FBI presented inaccurate information to the FISC.

The FISC on Friday ordered the FBI to provide “names” and “docket numbers” for 29 applications “for which the FBI could not locate a Woods File and the three for which it could not say whether a Woods File ever existed,” reported CBS’s Catherine Herridge. The FISC will assess whether the errors render the spy applications invalid.

We want prosecutions, not scathing reports and strongly worded letters blasting FBI officials.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.c...ations-found-errors/

explanation of issue here: https://theconservativetreehou...cations/#more-188210


Read the order here: https://www.fisc.uscourts.gov/...J%20JEB%20200403.pdf

Money shot aspect of court order:

2. The government shall:

(a) assess to what extent those 29 applications involved material misstatements or omissions; and

(b) assess whether any such material misstatements and omissions render invalid , in whole or in part, authorizations granted by the Court for that target in the reviewed docket or other dockets.


"Material mistatements" should get somebody prosecuted...

18 U.S. Code § 1623.False declarations before grand jury or court U.S. Code

(a)Whoever under oath (or in any declaration, certificate, verification, or statement under penalty of perjury as permitted under section 1746 of title 28, United States Code) in any proceeding before or ancillary to any court or grand jury of the United States knowingly makes any false material declaration or makes or uses any other information, including any book, paper, document, record, recording, or other material, knowing the same to contain any false material declaration, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.