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I would love to visit Germany , but I would hate to think everybody would treat me like shit because my Dad dropped bombs on them 73 years ago . | |||
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Member |
Even if you broadcast that fact on a t-shirt and wore in Germany, I doubt anyone would bother you about it. | |||
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| SIGforum's Berlin Correspondent  |
Yup. It's nothing German leftists haven't done on a grander scale while protesting against neonazis protesting the bombing of Dresden. Or Femen, for that matter, sans t-shirt.  | |||
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| Big Stack |
I called the idea actively stupid, because it is. Ignoring morality entire for a second, look at the forces that used that approach, and how well they fared. The Japanese came the closest to using it during WWII. They also imposed it on themselves (refusing to surrender.) How well did that work out for them. More recently ISIS did the same thing. They made a point of executing prisoners and putting the videos on the web. How did they end up?
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Member |
The Germans won't treat you that way because of what your dad did, don't sweat it. They will treat you that way because you are lowly, cowboy redneck American, and they are Germans. . | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive.  |
There's no way to know what would have happened, in either case - mine or yours. Perhaps the Japanese wouldn't have even attacked Pearl Harbor if they knew ahead of time that we'd nuke their assess, or if they knew/believed we were that type who would (they didn't before hand but they surely do now...). And the threat that we might again keeps things in check now, worldwide. So nukes are OK, but shooting enemy soldiers isn't? Same goes with ISIS and the like... they employ such techniques because they know we won't, and they know it freaks people out. I think it's disgusting, and I didn't suggest beheading anyone, only regular battlefield deaths, but the idea that a drone bomb or mortar round or frag grenade or 120mm round (which I don't object to) is much more humane than a machete is nitpicking of large proportions, at the very least. Though I'm personally delighted that my family members and those of loved ones and friends returned home after being POWs, they returned 100,000 of ours, we took over 400,000 of theirs... and if all of those had died on the battlefield instead perhaps we'd be better off? Or if WWI was of the brutal type, maybe WWII wouldn't have happened. There's simply no way to know. Further, there are various battles throughout history where no prisoners were taken, from our own Civil War to others. On top of which seemingly countless innocent bystanders have been killed by all sides in these so-called "more polite wars". Is that really any better? Is that all it takes to lead us into an enormous trap, to wave a few white handkerchiefs? I suggest it isn't much better, and that we (modern humanity) just pretends it's all more civilized than it really is, like buying a steak at Piggly Wiggly vs butchering it yourself, and in the end it's actually more costly to do it this way, as we just go to war more often and more casually than we otherwise would, further and further divorced from reality.. Again, nothing but casual musings, regardless, but far, far, far from stupid. Also, some of the most lauded and awarded soldiers in the history of this country are those who showed exceptional bravery and determination when others would have surrendered. So what is the lesson? Is bravery when all hope seems lost what we aspire to, or is it surrender because we might get killed? We (collectively) can't seem to make our mind up.
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| Too old to run, too mean to quit! |
Elk There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour) "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson "America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville FBHO!!! The Idaho Elk Hunter | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
At least we have a nice example of activity stupid statements - I wouldn't want to use the term argument or logic since that would imply the above had either one of those, which they don't.  | |||
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| Member |
[/QUOTE] Fred, I have been to Germany several times and I was always treated well. My post was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but obviously I didn't do a good job. I am glad to hear of your experience. Good people are everywhere. . | |||
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"Member" |
My neighbor growing up was captured and brought to the states as a German POW. Felt that it was pretty much the best thing that ever happened to him. My father's retold his stories (my neighbors) about guys sneaking into town to mail letters. So escaping. had they wanted, couldn't have been too hard. _____________________________________________________ Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911. | |||
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| Member |
It was a very interesting story. Thank You for posting it, I enjoyed it. | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive. |
yeah yeah, I suggest we (gasp) shoot Nazi soldiers on the battlefield rather than pay to bring ~400,000 of them from Africa and Europe and elsewhere to 700 camps in 46 US states as well as feeding them and being responsible for their continued imprisonment, and somehow I'm crazy and making stupid arguments? Meanwhile, BBMW has on numerous occasions openly and brazenly advocated getting rid of all paper money, having cameras everywhere one can imagine, and essentially implanting an Alexa/Echo in everyone's taint, you know - for better security or crime fighting or something, and hardly anyone says shit. So, yeah, I'm quite comfortable with my sense of priorities and who has shit twisted, thanks. It's been entertaining, though.  | |||
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| Too old to run, too mean to quit! |
Fred, I have been to Germany several times and I was always treated well. My post was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but obviously I didn't do a good job. I am glad to hear of your experience. Good people are everywhere. .[/QUOTE] Just have to add: I went through the school, testing, ceremonies, etc to get a German hunting license. Thru my father in law (German forestry official) I was routinely invited to hunt with him, as well as a number of other foresters. In the winter they would hold drive hunts with 15-30 shooters, drivers with dogs, etc. Especially hunting wild boar. Part of the fun in those drive hunts was the ceremony at the end of the day. Usually ended with some good eats, plenty of beer and a "trial" for minor infractions of hunting customs/rules. As the only American I was guaranteed to be on the receiving end. All in fun! Hours of laughter, stories, good eats, etc. My FIL's immediate boss for about 2 years was of the minor royalty out of the east zone. He had been a tank commander during the war, fighting against the US army. He shared a number of stories with me which was possible because he spoke English quite well. We also did a good bit of pistol shooting together. Which was hard for him because of the burns he sustained to his hands during the war. I met a German SFC at a major training area who had fought against the US during the war. He shared some stories, and a LOT of beer with a couple of us Ami's during the evenings at their beer hall. Again, great fun. As I have said, with all the experiences I had in Germany, never a hint of any anti-American feelings or conduct. Elk There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour) "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson "America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville FBHO!!! The Idaho Elk Hunter | |||
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| Leatherneck |
Uh, If WWI was of the brutal type...? I’m not sure anyone who has spent even a small amount of time researching WWI would argue that it wasn’t brutal. I get the primal desire to just say fuck it and be ruthless murderers but the problem with that is that any student of military history knows that no level of brutality or threat thereof will stop wars. Many weapons designers throughout history thought that their weapon would be the last. That nobody would ever fight again knowing how terrible it would be. And so far they’ve all been wrong. “Everybody wants a Sig in the sheets but a Glock on the streets.” -bionic218 04-02-2014 | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive. |
Fair enough, I could and should have been clearer regarding WWI, for sure. It was certainly brutal in various ways. But even the Geneva Convention didn't come into play until after WWII, and much of the opinions today are more reflective of a post Geneva paradigm. But you have heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? Fat Man and Little Boy? That Oppenheimer fellow? The resulting surrender of the Japanese? Are they not exactly what you say hasn't been invented yet? Seems like it worked as planned, contrary to your post? And I advocate no murder of anyone. I advocated killing enemy soldiers on the battlefield. Not civilians, not beheading anyone, no burning them at the stake, just shooting the Nazis rather than bringing nearly a half-million of them here to 46 of our 50 states... So you guys are cool with 400,000 "surrendering" durka-durkas being brought here, then, right, so long as they raise a white hanky and mind their manners at first? We could use them to do the cheap jobs illegal immigrants do, you know - free labor, right? They might have been conscripts, you know, just good people caught up in bad shit. Right? That cool? (surely not) | |||
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| Member |
By coincidence, this was published today: -------------------------- Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. -- H L Mencken I always prefer reality when I can figure out what it is. -- JALLEN 10/18/18 | |||
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| Freethinker |
Good grief! A brief quotation from Wikipedia about the Hague Convention of 1899 (about 15 years before World War I started, for the obviously ignorant): “This voluminous convention contains the laws to be used in all wars on land between signatories. It specifies the treatment of prisoners of war, includes the provisions of the Geneva Convention of 1864 for the treatment of the wounded, and forbids the use of poisons, the killing of enemy combatants who have surrendered, looting of a town or place, and the attack or bombardment of undefended towns or habitations. Inhabitants of occupied territories may not be forced into military service against their own country and collective punishment is forbidden. The section was ratified by all major powers mentioned above.” [Emphasis added.] The Germans in WW I even claimed that shotguns loaded with buckshot that Americans used were a violation of the law of warfare as agreed to by the belligerents because the shot was lead without any sort of jacket. They threatened to treat anyone found using such loads as a war criminal until the Americans threatened to retaliate and the whole thing died down. I’m going to stop mocking people who don’t mind pontificating concerning things they know nothing about because it would turn into a full time activity. ► 6.4/93.6 “It is peace for our time.” — Neville the Appeaser | |||
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| Leatherneck |
And you are aware that the United States has been involved in multiple shooting wars since we dropped those bombs right? The existence of our nuclear arsenal has not stopped war so I’m pretty sure executing a few poor assholes who wanted to give up wouldn’t stop it either. But WWII Japan is a great example of why your plan on how to treat POWs won’t work. The Japanese were extremely brutal towards those they captured. There are stories of Japanese officers ripping infants from their mothers arms, throwing them in the air and catching them on their swords. They preformed medical experiments on POWs. How’d that work out for them? Do you think the Marines fighting in the Pacific didn’t know about the treatment of POWs by the Japanese? Did that dissuade them? Nope. In fact the tanacity and brutality of the Japanese army was a driving force in our decision to drop those bombs. The North Vietnamese, Iraq, ISIS and the Taliban are all other examples of armies who kill and torture prisoners of war yet we’ve still fought all of them. And they’ve fought us even knowing about our bombs. You can argue all you want about how your plan is great but thousands of years of human history are not on your side. “Everybody wants a Sig in the sheets but a Glock on the streets.” -bionic218 04-02-2014 | |||
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| Member |
Jacket required. That's a fancy war right there. . | |||
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| Happiness is Vectored Thrust  |
Here’s the problem with that argument. What happens when the enemy soldier quits fighting and simply gives up? You kill him anyway? After all he’s “on the battlefield” right? That’s when it becomes simply murder. Or maybe you’re ok with the way the Germans machine gunned America soldiers who surrendered during the Battle of the Bulge (as one example)? I mean, after all they were just “enemy soldiers on the battlefield” so hose ‘em down, right? I think if you’d ever faced going in harms way you might think differently. But maybe not. There have been those throughout history who were ok with murder to achieve their goals. Icarus flew too close to the sun, but at least he flew. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge How Hitler's Last Soldier Evaded the FBI for 40 Years and Ended up in Colorado
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