Pennsylvania is and will always be “The Pothole State”.

It needs to be the state motto and put on license plates.

Three days ago it was deep into the 80s. I fired up the AC. This morning it is 26. So yes, that's a factor. There are a lot of hills. I assume that has some effect sometimes in some cases. The metric fuckton of salt doesn't help. Recall the collapsing bridge in Pittsburgh when Biden stopped to talk infrastructure? Many had wild theories about the coincidence, but I rather think that any given day is a good day for a rusty steel bridge in Pgh to collapse with all of the caustic shit they throw to enable bad drivers with summer tires to navigate our twisty hilly road system.

And then there is the elephant (or is it donkey) in the room? Diversion of funds. I am told that i am part of thee problem. I live in a township without a police department. It's not super rural, it has lots of relatively nice homes. It has a school, public water and sewer. But we get free policing from the state. It's not amazing response time, but they do it. I guess I can believe that a little of this is from that. But certainly there is diversion elsewhere as well.

100% PA roads are by far the worst.

I'm sure the climate has something to do with it BUT, if that were the case then NJ would be just as bad.

I live minutes from the DE river and I work in NJ, the difference is night and day when it comes to the roads and potholes. The past couple of years if feels like I'm driving the slalom.

And regarding the increased gas taxes to "fix the roads", yeah that's bullshit. I can't say with 100% certainty where the money is going but I know for damn sure it's not going into the roads at all.

quote:

Originally posted by r0gue:
The metric fuckton of salt doesn't help.

This coupled with dragging snow plow blades against the pavement.

All the heavy tractor trailer traffic doesn't help either. PA is the Keystone State for a reason. So many supply chain goods travel through here to get to other places. The big rigs really tear up the roads.

My teeth are still rattling going over the Newburgh, NY bridge after driving 81->84 from the Maryland line.

I always comment on this when we travel up 15 from home (I live like 1 mi off 15 in VA), through MD and into PA. I was just up in Gettysburg a few weeks ago and the roads are nice until PA.

Going back to the 80's and our trips up to see family in NY but just east of Erie PA off I-90, we used to joke about "Communist Pennsylvania; 55mph speed limit, cops every 5mi and terrible roads".

Minnesota roads and overall infrastructure is pretty bad. In fact The American Society of Civil Engineers gave Minnesota's roads a D+ report card rating just recently. I couldn't begin to count the number of politicians who promised to fix the roads and infrastructure over the years and it never seems to happen. Some of the major freeway systems are decent mostly in the metro area but that is federal money. County roads and city streets can be downright awful.

Not to mention it seems the county snow plow crews don't get out and clear the roads as they should because they are up against budget shortfalls most of the time. All the taxes collected over the years the streets should be covered in sterling silver and the curbs guild in gold. Where does all the money go? And yet somehow after nearly two years of a shutdown economy due to Covid we have a $9B tax surplus they just can't seem to figure out what to do with other than to dump more into social programs and the money pit known a the public education system.

Oh and Governor Walz plans on handing out Walz checks to all us peasants I'm sure somewhere close to the election so it is fresh in everyone's mind at the voting booth.

I drove from Scranton up to Lanesboro near Susquehanna to take photos of the Starrucca Viaduct a few years ago. I'm not sure if they were state or county roads, but I was surprised at the condition on the way up there and the number of deer I saw (I lost count at around 40) in a two or three mile stretch. The viaduct was cool but with it getting close to sundown, I decided to go by by the longer route to avoid the bad roads and the deer.

I avoided the deer. The roads were just as bad, and the interstate wasn't a lot better.

I’m sorry but some of the supporting arguments just don’t hold water.

It may be that PA is adversely affected by weather but a quick look at a map will show you places like NY, and all of New England are further North.

While PA may be less populated or poorer on a per capita basis most highway project are federally funded to the tune of something like 95%.

I don’t buy the argument that PA has more roads than all of New England..just doesn’t pass the smell test. A quick drive through CT, RI and MA will convince you otherwise.

Many of us will remember the late Senator Byrd of WV. While I’m sure we can all agree he was a SOB he did bring massive amounts of highway funding projects to his state. Building a highway through the mountains of WV is considerably more difficult than building one through a farm field..and the highways are smooth.

One last thing and I’ll get off my horse. Many, if not all, interstate highways are built on a concrete base. It’s the only way to support the heavy truck traffic that they’re suppose to carry. The trick is how to tie the slabs together so that one doesn’t rise compared to its neighbor and that is usually due to improper base.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:
All the heavy tractor trailer traffic doesn't help either. PA is the Keystone State for a reason. So many supply chain goods travel through here to get to other places. The big rigs really tear up the roads.

No it doesn't help but those big rigs pay a hefty road tax on top of fuel taxes to use those roads and the money is supposedly for road upkeep. The local governments are masters at three card monte when it comes to moving money designated for one thing and use it for another where often times a portion finds it's way into their pocket.

MANY years ago I flew in to Philadelphia to attend a school at the General Electric factory in King of Prussia . I rented a car and pulled out of the airport into several hours of living hell . It was late in the evening , just before dark . I had no idea where I was going , just a map . It seemed like every bit of the Turnpike was under construction with one poorly marked detour after another . I stayed lost for a good while .I know I passed through the same toll booth three times . The guy didn't even charge me the third time . He felt sorry for me ..I finally stumbled onto the right road and made it to the hotel .

[QUOTE]Originally posted by smlsig:
I’m sorry but some of the supporting arguments just don’t hold water.

I don’t buy the argument that PA has more roads than all of New England..just doesn’t pass the smell test. A quick drive through CT, RI and MA will convince you otherwise.


I had doubts about this as well, not having done the research myself to support the statement. So I did a little checking.

Found here: blog.cubitplanning.com dated 2019

Titled: Road miles by state: Sorted from the most to least -

Conn. 45916
Me. 46736
Mass. 77730
NH. 33391
Vt. 29273

Total for New England - 245,710

Total for Pa. - 251,708

When we lived in Pennsylvania the normal story was: Why are the roads in Lancaster county so bad? Because a Democrat governor will never spend money in Lancaster County because they always vote Republican no matter what. A Republican governor will not spend money in Lancaster County because they will always vote Republican no matter what.

When it rains they fill with water and you can't tell how deep they are, as a result I've hit a few good ones in my truck and I now swerve to miss all puddles in the road. Some were deep enough to rattle my teeth and give me a concussion.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris42:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by smlsig:
I’m sorry but some of the supporting arguments just don’t hold water.

I don’t buy the argument that PA has more roads than all of New England..just doesn’t pass the smell test. A quick drive through CT, RI and MA will convince you otherwise.


I had doubts about this as well, not having done the research myself to support the statement. So I did a little checking.

Found here: blog.cubitplanning.com dated 2019

Titled: Road miles by state: Sorted from the most to least -

Conn. 45916
Me. 46736
Mass. 77730
NH. 33391
Vt. 29273

Total for New England - 245,710

Total for Pa. - 251,708

Isn't New York part of New England? It's even called "New York" after York, England. When I was in school (a long time ago) "New England" included both New York and New Jersey.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by Chris42:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by smlsig:
I’m sorry but some of the supporting arguments just don’t hold water.

I don’t buy the argument that PA has more roads than all of New England..just doesn’t pass the smell test. A quick drive through CT, RI and MA will convince you otherwise.


I had doubts about this as well, not having done the research myself to support the statement. So I did a little checking.

Found here: blog.cubitplanning.com dated 2019

Titled: Road miles by state: Sorted from the most to least -

Conn. 45916
Me. 46736
Mass. 77730
NH. 33391
Vt. 29273

Total for New England - 245,710

Total for Pa. - 251,708

According to the DOT website New England has a total of 9235 miles vs. 5450 in PA… I was referring to federally funded (i.e. interstate highway).

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hs01/hm41.htm

I live in WV, almost on the PA border, and in my experience riding all over WV and much of PA, WV roads are in worse overall repair. In some WV counties WAY worse. There are a number of reasons for this:

Heavy trucks from the extraction and timber industry. The stone and timber trucks are so heavy they can't go on Interstates so you can imagine what they do to rural roads. And since WV has relied on taxes from these industries, especially in the past, there isn't much regulation or enforcement to discourage it. Here's an example: some years ago the neighbors up the road timbered their property. We live on the same dirt road, their WV property borders PA while I'm a mile south. They drove north into PA on paved roads rather than pound down a 1 lane busted up dirt road, and at that time they had to anyway as the small bridge over a stream between them and me had collapsed some years back so only ATV's could get through (when the water was low). So the log trucks would have to take the timber north into PA on the nice paved roads, then back into WV to the saw mill right?

Wrong. They would have had to post road bond in PA which would be used to repair any damage they caused to the roads, and the logging was being done late Winter / Spring when the ground was soft and they knew their trucks would break the roads. To solve that problem they simply built a temporary bridge out of heavy timber which was a pretty big job, it took them a couple weeks. The logging trucks used this 1 lane road for months and when any vehicle encounters another vehicle, one vehicle has to back up to a pull off place, LOL and it usually wasn't the logging truck. Once they reached the end of our dirt road they turned on to a small 1 1/2 lane road that had just been repaved the previous year so brand new pavement. When I encountered one of those trucks on that road of course I'd pull way over and stop so they could squeeze past, and I watched their tires push the pavement down then it came back up as they passed. The road remained smooth that Summer and Fall but was ruined with cracks everywhere. Next Spring it was in pieces. I spoke with another neighbor about what they did to "our new pavement", he works for WV DOT. He just shook his head saying haulers try to avoid hauling heavy roads in PA in the Winter and concentrate working in WV where no road bonds are required and theres little to no enforcement.

Another is in WV road funds come from 3 taxes; gasoline/diesel, sales tax on new and used vehicles, and license plates. WV has a lot of miles of small-medium rural roads and there simply aren't enough people/vehicles funding the above taxes for the miles of roads. For example two PA counties (not even the largest) Allegheny and Bucks, have more people than the entire State of WV.

I will say this though, WV does seem to take decent care of the roads in areas where we're promoting tourism, but at the expense of the rest of the roads.

Reading the above road miles per State, WV has 1.7 million people supporting 81,000 miles of roads while neighboring MD has over 6 million people supporting 71,000 miles of roads. MD does have more miles of larger (4-6 lane) roads than WV which offsets it a little though.

quote:

Originally posted by PGT:
I always comment on this when we travel up 15 from home (I live like 1 mi off 15 in VA), through MD and into PA. I was just up in Gettysburg a few weeks ago and the roads are nice until PA.

Rt 15 is exactly what I was referring to in my OP.

Go through VA and MD on it and it’s like you’re in West Germany, 1981, then you cross the state line into PA and it becomes East Germany

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
Isn't New York part of New England? It's even called "New York" after York, England. When I was in school (a long time ago) "New England" included both New York and New Jersey.

flashguy

New York is the northernmost of the "Middle Atlantic" states/region. It may have changed since you were in school, flashguy, but it's been like that since at least 1970 when I was in school.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...antic_(United_States)