quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:

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Originally posted by mark123:

I, also, have left “the church”. However, I am still loyal to the Father.

Rev: 3:15-17 describes the church.

Mars, I'd encourage you to read the rest of that chapter, verses 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22. That is the solution to the problems with the church. Man will fail you, but Jesus will not. Thats why we need Him anyways.

quote:

Originally posted by MtCowboy:
Romans 10:9-10 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

I was raised in a Christian home and confessed/was baptized at an early age. I can’t tell you what that date/time was. I don’t have the great story of turning from drugs, crime, etc that some have who come to faith in Christ in later years. That was a concern of mine when I was younger if I had been really saved until I realized that all sin, no matter how bad we think it is, separates us from God and requires redemption.

To me, not being able to remember the date means nothing as I believe now and there is evidence of the Holy Spirit’s work in my life causing me to grow in grace and knowledge of my Saviour.

100% agree. If you ask Christ come into your life and read Romans, you are saved. I was saved at an early age reciting those words. I was baptized much later. I didn’t save the dates. The dates are insignificant. Baptists push the saving thing all the time, bring up the date all the time, at least in my experience. I remember those services, every service, getting people to stand up, come to the front and do it in front of everyone. IMO, you can do it yourself by reading the text in the Bible.

Catholicism doesn’t bring this up every service like Baptists or non-denominational Churches do. It is covered however.

"If you ask Christ come into your life and read Romans, you are saved"

Done both numerous times. I'm still left cynical. I hope when it's my time I learn I'm saved.

I, too, was born a Roman Catholic. In my later teen years, I stopped "being a Catholic." When I joined the Navy, I became the stereotypical sailor.

The concept of being saved in the biblical sense is that everyone is bound for an eternity in hell and being saved means you have been redeemed from that fate and are heaven bound instead.

I believe this concept is encapsulated in Ephesians 2:8-10. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

From this we get the following:
1. We're saved by grace through faith. We're not saved by anything in ourselves or by our works - what we do.
2. Being saved is a free gift; it is not earned, it is not something we can get by working for it or doing something for it.
3. First we get saved, and it is because we are saved that we do good works. Good works come as a part of being saved, it's not something we do to get saved.

How do we get saved by faith? What is faith? The Bible has a lot to say what faith is; you can read Hebrews 11 as the Hall Of Fame of believers. Faith is believing, hence Christians are also referred to as believers. Faith is the same thing you exercise when you look at a chair, decide that it's sturdy enough to hold you, and then you sit on it. That's what faith entails.

For a person to be saved according to the Bible, that person believes that what Jesus did in dying on the cross was the payment for sin, for all sins committed by Adam and everybody else until the end of the world. The idea of the blood of the sacrificial lamb as atonement for sin has been taught and illustrated throughout the Old Testament. These were foreshadowings pointing to the actual sacrifice of Christ.

But as Ephesians says, salvation is a gift and for a gift to be yours, you have to receive it. For most people, it's generally a point in their life when they receive this gift by realizing they have sin that they can never pay for by themselves and that they accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross as payment for their sins. In accepting that, they commit to seeing sin for what it is, something against God's glory, and they commit to a daily walk with God.

That does not mean you become perfect and stop sinning. It means you commit to a life living in God's grace. Growing in wisdom as to how to live a life pleasing to God and continually availing yourself of God's grace as covering for your sins.

I've met a couple of people who honestly could not remember a time when they became "saved." They were raised up in a Christian family and they simply grew up believing the good news. I became saved on Jun 3, 1978 in the middle of the Indian Ocean. I was reading the bible so I can argue with Christians. What was the critical point for me was when I read the passage, "Come to me who are weary and I will give you rest...." At that point, it was a bold promise from someone who appeared to knew he was about to be killed. No one makes a bold promise like that unless they can back it up. I then said in that moment, "Whatever it takes, Lord, I want you to be the Master of my life." No one was there to guide me so I said it sitting down, standing up, and on my knees. I figured I should cover all the bases. I've considered myself saved since then.

And since then, I've been sharing His word in my own way. More recently, by handing out New Testaments similar to the one a little old lady handed to me as I boarded the bus on the way to bootcamp in San Diego.

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny 3eagles:
"If you ask Christ come into your life and read Romans, you are saved"

Done both numerous times. I'm still left cynical. I hope when it's my time I learn I'm saved.

Yes, it stated that but it also describes what a believer should look like. Paul, Peter, John all describe Christian characteristics, how we should live and act. If we proclaim to be “saved” yet do not display those, there is a problem. 1 John describes this when he speaks of habitual sin, John is pretty clear on a child of the darkness and child of the Light.

John 3:3 - Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I believe becoming a Christian is a moment of accepting God's grace through faith in his son Jesus, who was born of a virgin, lived a perfect sinless life, taught us God's word, humbled himself unto death on a cross, and was raised in victory on the 3rd day. I believe repentance is our half of the equation when it comes to accepting Jesus Christ: our acknowledgment of our sinful nature and our need for the savior and then the effort to turn away from sin.

I believe you have to make that distinct choice and that happened for me at a young age, probably 6 or 7. God has been in my heart ever since and has blessed me beyond what I could imagine on this earth, and he has paradise waiting at the end, whether it is by death or his returning. He is not only my savior but He is my Lord and he directs my steps. I wander because I am still a sinner, and He is quick to forgive.

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:
read Romans

I'm NOT a Bible scholar at all, but I can say this: Romans is the book that kicks my butt every time I read some of it.

Saved at age 10 (1980) based on the quoted Romans 10:9-10 passage others have mentioned and baptized by immersion (Southern Baptist). I don’t have the exact date but still remember the details. (Pretty easy since my father was the preacher). My wife grew up Methodist and was only sprinkled when she made a profession of faith. She was later baptized by immersion a couple of years after we married as we still continue to go to a Southern Baptist church.

I’d encourage anyone who has stepped away from regularly attending to keep looking for the church and small group of friends that is a good fit for you/your family. All churches are full of hypocrites so I don’t accept that excuse very readily as a reason not to attend. Even Paul, who I’m no match for theologically speaking said (paraphrasing) that he struggled trying to do the things he ought to do while still doing the very things he shouldn’t. Spiritual growth is a life-long, continual process.

Regarding sprinkling vs immersion:
I've been told (and could be very wrong) that the sprinkling is an act on the part of the parents, committing the child to a Christian upbringing, and the immersion is done when that person makes their own conscious decision to follow Christ.

I read this thread with great interest. I am among those here also raised Catholic (as was my wife). I attended parochial school through 8th grade, but went to public school for HS, questioning some of the things I experienced in grade school. Still, I continued to attend Sunday mass with my family.

My wife and I married in the Catholic Church and we continued to attend Mass, with our kids. In the 90s we were living in Williams, Arizona and we were blessed with a wonderful priest/pastor from Ireland. I was a lector who did readings from the Bible during Mass, my wife taught Catechism, and I was on the Parish Council.

I was promoted in my job and we moved to a small town in eastern Colorado. We continued to practice our faith, but with less enthusiasm, the priest did not inspire more. For me at least, a positive relationship with the clergy is important.

Two things happened. Another move, and this time the Catholic Church was quite a ways from our house AND, as the Church scandals were more revealed, my wife and I both were repelled from the Church. Another move, and even greater distance from the local church—nearly 50 miles.

Now my wife and I are feeling the vacancy in our lives. I bought a Catholic Bible and have been reading it. My wife’s been talking about saying the Rosary, and shopping for the right one. We are talking about Sunday Mass again (but haven’t yet made the commitment), and hope there’s a priest who can make a connection. Am I saved? I really don’t know, but neither my wife or I have given up on the idea.

Tmats, as a fellow Catholic who has shared similar “waves” as you - think of it this way.

When was Peter “saved”? He followed Christ, is the rock of the church, and yet denied him. Even after his death, Paul rebuked him for other faults.

I fervently believe that being “saved” is an ongoing thing, if you persist until the end you will be saved. That doesn’t mean you won’t sin, backslide, have doubts, abandon Jesus, etc - but he will give you every chance to repent and accept him, love him, and serve him as King.

Our God is generous, loving, and caring; he will, like the best possible Father, give us the opportunity to follow him, like the good thief on the cross.

quote:

Originally posted by TMats:
I read this thread with great interest. I am among those here also raised Catholic (as was my wife). I attended parochial school through 8th grade, but went to public school for HS, questioning some of the things I experienced in grade school. Still, I continued to attend Sunday mass with my family.

My wife and I married in the Catholic Church and we continued to attend Mass, with our kids. In the 90s we were living in Williams, Arizona and we were blessed with a wonderful priest/pastor from Ireland. I was a lector who did readings from the Bible during Mass, my wife taught Catechism, and I was on the Parish Council.

I was promoted in my job and we moved to a small town in eastern Colorado. We continued to practice our faith, but with less enthusiasm, the priest did not inspire more. For me at least, a positive relationship with the clergy is important.

Two things happened. Another move, and this time the Catholic Church was quite a ways from our house AND, as the Church scandals were more revealed, my wife and I both were repelled from the Church. Another move, and even greater distance from the local church—nearly 50 miles.

Now my wife and I are feeling the vacancy in our lives. I bought a Catholic Bible and have been reading it. My wife’s been talking about saying the Rosary, and shopping for the right one. We are talking about Sunday Mass again (but haven’t yet made the commitment), and hope there’s a priest who can make a connection. Am I saved? I really don’t know, but neither my wife or I have given up on the idea.

I agree that a good relationship with a minister is important but try focusing more on your relationship with Jesus. You have his Word and you have a direct line to talk to and hear from him in prayer. Perhaps that is a ritual prayer but I also encourage you to just speak to God from your heart. Tell Him your fears, confess your sins to Him, ask for His help, and then take time to listen. If you are not sure that you are saved, then pray to Him. Do you believe who He is, according to the scripture? Do you believe He died for your sins? Then repent and follow His ways. You will still sin, but that does not change His relationship with you.

A couple small thoughts inspired by Mars' posts:

I had a seemingly opposite experience, in the first days of my attendance at the Baptist church. I wished they were a bit more lukewarm! Having come from the regimented Catholic services, I was a bit overwhelmed by all the enthusiasm. I have grown to appreciate it though. Early on, I found myself sometimes stifling an eye-roll, but I grew to utilize the time in the service for my own private communications with Christ. Now I find myself appreciating the Baptist enthusiasm more and more. If a congregation is lukewarm, I'd suggest trying another, or consider doing your part to inspire that one to a higher degree of spiritual heat.

Another thought I was reminded of, in considering that one; though it's a bit less directly-related: In talking to my apostate, now atheistic brother about his beef with Christianity, he of course mentions the hypocrisy of so many churchgoers. My reply to him was that our society has convinced him and many like him that a piece of shit that wears it on his sleeve is preferred to an imperfect Christian. That is, of course, ridiculous.

On Prefontaine's comment...

quote:

Baptists push the saving thing all the time, bring up the date all the time, at least in my experience. I remember those services, every service, getting people to stand up, come to the front and do it in front of everyone. IMO, you can do it yourself by reading the text in the Bible.

That is exactly what I perceived, and exactly what I thought. I still do think that one need not make a big scene of their being saved. However, I also believe that one of the most important things we can do as Christians is evangelize. Make more Christians; make stronger Christians. If me sharing the circumstances of being saved in front of a congregation nudges even one of the onlookers nearer to their own salvation, then it was a big scene worth making. That is likely what motivates many preachers to encourage folks to share.

And what preacher doesn't like another one of his flock sobbing during a dramatic testimony under his watch?

TMats, you might consider not limiting yourself to Catholic churches. I was alienated by anything not Catholic, when we started trying out some local churches. I now very-much appreciate the different perspectives, and feel as though my faith has been strengthened exponentially by them.

quote:

Originally posted by TMats:
My wife’s been talking about saying the Rosary, and shopping for the right one.

I can recommend The Catholic Woodworker.. A bit on the spendy side, but high quality and handmade.

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Originally posted by Gustofer:

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Originally posted by TMats:
My wife’s been talking about saying the Rosary, and shopping for the right one.

I can recommend The Catholic Woodworker.. A bit on the spendy side, but high quality and handmade.

Thanks, Gus. I took a quick look and there are several that I think are really nice. I like the idea of one made with paracord.

quote:

Another thought I was reminded of, in considering that one; though it's a bit less directly-related: In talking to my apostate, now atheistic brother about his beef with Christianity, he of course mentions the hypocrisy of so many churchgoers. My reply to him was that our society has convinced him and many like him that a piece of shit that wears it on his sleeve is preferred to an imperfect Christian. That is, of course, ridiculous.

Regarding hypocrisy: Is it better to live your beliefs (faith) imperfectly, or to have no belief at all?
I don't know of anyone who lives life perfectly, without some level of hypocrisy.

My Dad (a Pentecostal preacher) always said would you prefer to go to church with a few hypocrites or go to Hell with all of them? LOL.

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Originally posted by KSGM:

On Prefontaine's comment...

That is exactly what I perceived, and exactly what I thought. I still do think that one need not make a big scene of their being saved. However, I also believe that one of the most important things we can do as Christians is evangelize. Make more Christians; make stronger Christians. If me sharing the circumstances of being saved in front of a congregation nudges even one of the onlookers nearer to their own salvation, then it was a big scene worth making. That is likely what motivates many preachers to encourage folks to share.

See this is where we all don’t believe the same things. To me God teaches, in the Bible, and I’m translating here, to have one foot in society and one foot out. That’s how I see it anyway. I once heard a priest talking about people who have a Christian HVAC guy, Christian Plumber, and a freaking rolodex of Christian only type thing and he said that’s not what we should be doing. Everyone is free to make their own interpretations. Evangelizing isn’t necessary to me at all. Being an example is. I don’t tell anyone how to live their life, unless they ask for my opinion. I lead by example with friends, family, and at work. I tell the truth always, even if it offends, do not hide my faith at all, and if eating, I’ll bow my head and say my prayers in front of everyone whether they like it or not, business dinner, private dinner, makes no difference to me but I do it silently, but it’s very visible. I don’t demand other’s hands and ask them to do it too. I don’t preach to them nor lecture that they should be doing this or that, or not doing this or that. I set the example for myself. If they want to inquire as to why, when, what, etc, I’ll answer, help, whatever I can do. But I refuse to preach. That’s because I’m a sinner and I refuse to be a hypocrite like so many Christians with their holier than thou nonsense pushing their ways, which may not be the right way to go. Most Christians I’ve come across are extremely judgmental as well and they aren’t forgiving in nature. I’ll never understand them either. God forgives, for most any sin, but people don’t. For many people evangelizing doesn’t work. Same way alcoholics won’t listen to people around them to stop. Until the alcoholic decides, themself, to cut it out, then reach out for help to achieve, it’s just not going to happen. God is the same way. For many people the more you push, evangelize to them, etc, the further you are going to push them away. Christianity isn’t a one way thing because people aren’t one way, they are many, and it’s vast. I always remind myself that some of the angels were rough, nasty creatures, because they had to be. As they say, multiple ways to skin a cat.

I think our styles are more similar than what my statement apparently (accidentally) conveyed. Perhaps evangelize isn't even the right word to use, for how I feel on the matter; it may actually be too aggressive. I used it then, in the most literal "watered down" sense: making some effort to introduce people to Christ and/or bring them closer if they already know something of Him.

Your willingness to publicly display your faith is actually a great example of exactly that, and will no doubt serve to proliferate Christianity. You do evangelize, in the sense that I initially used the word. Just plant the seed; get the wheels turning.

You're right though. I should determine a different way to say what I mean. The dictionary definitions of the word evangelize imply much more enthusiasm and "pushiness".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

Id like to thank the OP - KSGM for posing a very thoughtful and honest question to the forum. Take a bit to share these thoughts/concerns about faith.
Read everyone's post. Distinctly, i agree with 12131... I will only "know" I'm saved on the day of judgment....
The short answer for me, is if I have followed the path and "The way" Jesus Christ laid for me and my family... as a son, father, and husband..
Piety, good deeds, and such are secondary but important.
I'm still not sure if I'm following as well as i should.

The one Theologian that helped me understand the bible, and the teachings within it, was St. Thomas Aquinas with his "shorter Summa" (Summa Theologica). I guess I needed a bit more help understanding than others.