Did any of the Apostles ever refer to themselves by any special title?

Did they ever claim people they trained to have a special status?

To use this passenger from Timothy is they typical response, but it doesn't mean that Scripture is sufficient. Protestant translators (solely in an act of protest to the Church) translated the Greek word for "profitable as sufficient. The scriptures are profitable. Also, the whole thing is a moot argument because the passage, in context, is to Timothy, and predates the New Testament as a document. The Epistles are obviously a part of scripture now, but when they were written, they were letters from Paul to churches, bishops, or individuals. This is a prime example of a single verse being used out of context as a prooftext, but really being a pretext.

**How is it taken out of context? Paul's words were not just letters, otherwise why do we have them/use them? He was used for God to speak to the Gentiles and were given to Him by the Holy Spirit and Jesus said himself He was using Paul and was a witness for Christ. God's word is sufficient and profitable for teaching. If you add tradition into things-traditions were for the Jews in the other commandments with preparations of utensils, cleaning, food, etc., like the example I gave prior when Jesus said this people honors Me with their traditions when questioned why He and His apostles did not wash their hands and utensils before eating/drinking.

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5. You don't understand Catholic teaching on the intercession of the saints. Jesus never said that no one else can pray for us or intercede for us. And Mary was without sin. "Full of Grace." For you to say that she was just your average sinner is to completely miss the whole point of the birth of Christ. You have to ignore all of the foreshadowing of her in the OT, you have to ignore Gabriel's words, which when literally translated from the Greek are, "Rejoice, you who have been and remain filled with grace, the Lord is with you.", you have to ignore the rest of the typology used, especially by John in the Gospel and in Revelation. It takes WAY more effort to ignore Mary's perfect grace than to reject it like protestants do.

**While I am not trying to start tension but Mary was never sinless and the Bible never said she was. We can't have 2 figures being sinless or that would make Mary equal to God/Jesus. Grace is the kindness of God and by His grace we are able to have salvation. If you use "full of grace" in that manner why not with Stephen in Acts 6:8. Was he sinless too? You can't ignore John's gospel to prove a point because you are then taking scripture out of context the same way you say I am.

Only Jesus was sinless and therefore able to be the perfect sacrifice for us. Sin fell on Adam and was past on through him, the male. Mary had a father and a mother, hence she was under sin but was seen as special in the eyes of the Lord for His purpose. Many were special in His eyes, as we see throughout the Old Testament but only one was God in the flesh and there is only one we pray to.

There is nothing wrong with asking others to pray for you but we don't pray to them to do that. Mary is not divine and cannot whisper into God's ear to ask for anything but many people bow down to her image to do just that,( another issue is with the statues of Jesus, Mary and others in some churches which are graven images. We don't know what He or even they looked like, other than Him being Jewish but many churches have a statue, image, etc., of Him and/or them looking like European(s), which is false). Jesus is the one we are to pray to and in His name not others, Romans 8:34 but I can give others. He always intercedes for us and is our advocate, 1 John 2:1. Where in the Bible does it say to pray to Mary or any "saint" to intercede for us to Jesus? Jesus is our only intercessor between us and God,1 Timothy 2:5. Having others pray for us is biblical but not praying to another for doing so. I agree it takes more effort to believe something that isn't there but that doesn't make it true.

An exercise, for those willing to participate:

Catholics: What is your primary (personal) beef with Protestantism?

Protestants: What is your primary (personal) beef with Catholicism?

By personal I mean something you've experienced in your life that has given you the attitude you possess. We are all know, or can learn, the history of the Protestant Reformation. Luther's beef(s) isn't necessarily our own.

I encourage all to consider whether your beefs have been taught or anecdotally developed. As an example: a Protestant may have had a mentor who was of a more aggressive anti-Catholic attitude. He likely imparted those he mentored with a bias not their own. The same can be said for the denominational opposite, of course.

I use the word "beef" loosely. "Problem" or "disagreement" (and likely other words) would be synonymous in this context. You get the idea.

To start, I'll share what I have mentioned in this thread already. As a current Protestant (former Catholic), my beef with the Catholic church is their lack of emphasis and enthusiasm concerning the fundamentals of salvation. I think their doctrine dilutes and distracts-from the fundamental truth of the gift of Jesus reconciliation of our sinful nature. I admit this is likely a somewhat unfair assessment, as I am considering my experience as a thoroughly distracted young man, compared to a (very nearly) mature adult. The bottom line is I accepted Jesus' gift and welcomed the Holy Spirit into my heart as a result of minimal attendance at a Southern Baptist church. I had spent most of my formative years in the Catholic church, yet never even nearly comprehended the truth. Ultimately I felt the beginning of my true walk with Christ was delayed by years; nearly two decades.

All that said, I am grateful for my Catholic foundation, and I'd be lying if I said it wasn't due some credit for my current saved condition.

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Protestants: What is your primary (personal) beef with Catholicism?

My current and most recent beef is that Catholicism claims the ability to authoritatively interpret scripture, but I have yet to receive any examples of such. It makes it quite hard to see where my interpretation of scripture differs from theirs.

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An exercise, for those willing to participate:

Catholics: What is your primary (personal) beef with Protestantism?

Protestants: What is your primary (personal) beef with Catholicism?

By personal I mean something you've experienced in your life that has given you the attitude you possess. We are all know, or can learn, the history of the Protestant Reformation. Luther's beef(s) isn't necessarily our own.

None. I have no beef with any of them.

I have a good friend who is Lutheran. I've been to her church for several things. It's a good atmosphere. I have a bro-in-law who married a Methodist and he attends services with her. He still considers himself a Catholic.

I think they all have merit and I believe that there are and can be different paths to salvation. As a Catholic, I believe ours is usually the best/better path but obviously it isn't right for everyone either through some misunderstanding or whatever.

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I believe that there are and can be different paths to salvation.

I believe that too through Christ’s sacrifice. I do not believe our Creator is itching to condemn His children to hell for not getting everything right. After all we can do, the atonement makes up the difference through mercy. Accept that atonement and align with the gospel of Christ to the best of your understanding.

I agree with Chellim and Darth. Presumably we all agree on that... Or perhaps not.

Does anyone disagree with:

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I think they all have merit and I believe that there are and can be different paths to salvation. As a Catholic, I believe ours is usually the best/better path but obviously it isn't right for everyone either through some misunderstanding or whatever.

I believe that too through Christ’s sacrifice. I do not believe our Creator is itching to condemn His children to hell for not getting everything right. After all we can do, the atonement makes up the difference through mercy. Accept that atonement and align with the gospel of Christ to the best of your understanding.

?

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Originally posted by KSGM:
I agree with Chellim and Darth. Presumably we all agree on that... Or perhaps not.

Does anyone disagree with:

I believe that too through Christ’s sacrifice. I do not believe our Creator is itching to condemn His children to hell for not getting everything right. After all we can do, the atonement makes up the difference through mercy. Accept that atonement and align with the gospel of Christ to the best of your understanding.

I think most if not all Christians would disagree with the view of salvation that is quoted here from the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23. Why would you presume that most or all Christians would agree with this?

Fair point. I was not aware of the Mormon verse containing that "all we can do" phrase, and I didn't read Darth's post that way. Maybe I read it wrong, and he did indeed cite a Mormon verse. I don't know.

I am not as learned as Talon and Cous. I do think that time spent determining the "correct" way to worship/believe/study should not overwhelm time spent executing Christ's "love directive". So I suppose I am prone to be more lenient of perceived differences in belief structures across denominations, for the sake of exerting available energy to live by The Spirit.

I appreciate the ongoing conversation very much. Thank you to all.

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Originally posted by Cous2492:

5. You don't understand Catholic teaching on the intercession of the saints. Jesus never said that no one else can pray for us or intercede for us. And Mary was without sin. "Full of Grace." For you to say that she was just your average sinner is to completely miss the whole point of the birth of Christ.

It takes WAY more effort to ignore Mary's perfect grace than to reject it like protestants do.

1) On the intercession of saints:

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John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."

No one comes to the Father except through Jesus; it doesn't say "except through Jesus and Mary and the rest of the saints."

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1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

I don't know how this can be any clearer: there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the Man Christ Jesus; it doesn't say there are several mediators between God and mankind.

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Hebrews 7:24-25 "Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

The Old Testament teaches the priests are the intercessors between God and mankind. The New Testament teaches it is Jesus who holds His priesthood permanently and therefore can always make intercession for those who come to God. Jesus doesn't need anyone's help to intercede for sinners as He is quite capable of doing so.

2. On the sinlessness of Mary

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Luke 1:46-47 "And Mary said: 'My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."

People need a savior because we are sinners in need of saving. If Mary was without sin, she would not need to be saved and she would not need a savior. If she said God is her savior but didn't really need a savior because she was without sin, then she would be lying which is a sin.

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Romans 3:23-24 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."

It says ALL have sinned; it doesn't say, "for all have sinned except Mary." The redemption for everyone, including Mary is found in Christ Jesus and no other.

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Luke 2:21-24 "And when eight days were completed so that it was time for His circumcision, He was also named Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. And when the days for their purification according to the Law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord: “Every firstborn male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”), and to offer a sacrifice according to what has been stated in the Law of the Lord: “A pair of turtledoves or two young doves.”

Joseph and Mary took Jesus to offer the sacrifice commanded by Moses. This specific command is in Leviticus 12.

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"When a woman gives birth and delivers a male child,.... When the days of her
purification are completed,... she shall bring to the priest... a one-year-old lamb as a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtled dove as a sine offering. Then he shall offer it before the Lord and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who gives birth.... But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young doves, the one as a burnt offering and the other as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her and she will be clean."

Mary offered the sin offering commanded to be made as atonement for her. God's law in the Old Testament declared all women to be in need of atonement and cleansing after giving birth. She accepted she was a sinner in need of a savior who would atone for her sins. The scriptures portrays Mary as being a sinner; you have man's tradition saying she wasn't a sinner. Both of them can't be true at the same time and one of them has to be wrong. This is where Sola Scriptura guides the believer in what to believe - the Bible or tradition.

You don't want Jesus' words in Mark 7:6-9 to haunt you.

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This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me. and in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.' Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition."

The bolding is my "editorializing" but I took the passages verbatim.

Paul also said in Colossians 2:8-9.

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See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, rather than in accordance with Christ. For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete...."

Believers have been made complete in Jesus. One either believes in that or believes in human tradition.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rey HRH,

On Mary; specifically drawing from Rey's above remarks:

I don't think anyone is implying that Mary or any Saint is capable of reconciling our sins. I don't think anyone is saying they are in any way comparable to Christ, in this regard.

I am going to stick to the explanation I observed in a Protestant/Orthodox conversation clip I saw, and previously mentioned: If one so chooses, they can ask Mary or a Saint to intercede on behalf of a concern of theirs, the same way we might ask each other to pray for one another. We would not ask one another to pray that this-that-or-the-other sin be forgiven. We do not repent to one another, and we would not repent to Mary or a Saint.

All that is to say that I don't think anyone is implying that Mary or anyone else is on "equal footing" with Christ in any regard; especially forgiveness of sins.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
On Mary; specifically drawing from Rey's above remarks:

I don't think anyone is implying that Mary or any Saint is capable of reconciling our sins. I don't think anyone is saying they are in any way comparable to Christ, in this regard.

Are you aware of the Marian dogmas proclaiming Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix?

https://www.ewtn.com/catholici...ix-and-advocate-5409

I was not aware of that. There is A LOT that I am not aware of.

My comment was referring to the participants of this conversation. I am not surprised that there are advocates for such an extreme application of Mary. That is indeed bizarre. I don't understand the point of such a pursuit.

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I don't think anyone is implying that Mary or any Saint is capable of reconciling our sins. I don't think anyone is saying they are in any way comparable to Christ, in this regard.

What people are saying here is that Mary can't hear our prayers and can't act/intercede/help or pray for you, that is the issue and not that she can save someone. When we pray, we are to pray to Jesus to intercede for us, no one else. If people pray to Mary, it is in vain and idol worship. If you ask for Mary's help or to help her pray for you, you are in essence praying to her/the creation and not the Creator. There are only three that are God and can hear prayers.

The biggest prayer you can pray is the sinner's prayer of repentance and change in your life by believing in Jesus and what He did for us. Only He paid the price for us.

There is no other way to heaven but through Jesus, John 14:6 says it clearly, "I am the way, the truth and the life" and He/Jesus goes on to say "no one comes to the Father but by/through Me". Only Jesus can make that claim as He is also God.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
On Mary; specifically drawing from Rey's above remarks:

I don't think anyone is implying that Mary or any Saint is capable of reconciling our sins. I don't think anyone is saying they are in any way comparable to Christ, in this regard.

Here’s the thing: to respond to my post as you did by saying, “I don’t think anyone is implying that Mary or any saint is capable of reconciling our sins” makes it seem my argument is against that position which no one is saying. If I am arguing against a position that no one is saying then my argument is not worth anything. It’s like saying, “Well, Rey, no one is saying Santa is real.” What value could a post be if it purportedly argues for Santa not being real?

But if you look at my post, I quoted the comment I was responding to and I enumerated the two points:

1) that Jesus didn’t say nobody else can intercede for people to God meaning people can ask Mary and the saints to intercede for them. I didn’t mention reconciliation or implied it, did I?

2) that Mary was without sin.

Those are the two things he raised in his comment that I quoted and those are the two things I limited myself in addressing.

And I’m sure how you responded wasn’t what you intended but I broke it down for you to give you feedback. As in anything controversial, words have meanings and it’s important to correctly parse what is being stated.

On the first point, of intercession, I read those passages from 1 Timothy and Hebrews in the context of reconciliation, and mistakenly got the impression that you were specifically addressing prayer to Mary or Saints for forgiveness of sins.

The Hebrews verse does say "save forever", but I may have taken more of a liberty with the 1 Timothy excerpt.

Thank you for your feedback. I understand that my misunderstanding of your reply could have "stirred the pot". I apologize for unwittingly putting words in your mouth.

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“Well, Rey, no one is saying Santa is real.”

Hey, Rey, good points! Thanks!

When I pray the rosary... it includes a bunch of Hail Marys:

Hail, Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.

It's a simple prayer. It asks her to pray for us. It doesn't ask her to forgive or sins or anything else she can't do.
We also ask other people to pray and pray with them.

Can Mary, or any saint for that matter, who is not God, hear my prayer?
I honestly don't know. But I do hope that God, who can hear my prayer, doesn't hold it against me if I ask other people to pray for us sinners.

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Originally posted by chellim1:

Hey, Rey, good points! Thanks!

When I pray the rosary... it includes a bunch of Hail Marys:


Can Mary, or any saint for that matter, who is not God, hear my prayer?
I honestly don't know. But I do hope that God, who can hear my prayer, doesn't hold it against me if I ask other people to pray for us sinners.

To be clear: I believe people are free to pray to whom ever or whatever they wish to. It’s what I believe politically and spiritually.

As I mentioned before, I come from a Roman Catholic family and have become, what I call, a Bible Christian.

I have been exploring St. Augustine’s maxim: “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

From that, I believe all “true” Christians are unified in the essentials such as believing Jesus is both God and Man. Believing instead that Jesus is otherwise puts you out of the realm of Biblical Christianity. Surrounding the core essentials are things where Christians of good faith may disagree such as baptism by immersion, sprinkling, or baptism by a certain exact proscription.

I don’t know where the fine dividing line is between the essentials and non-essentials where, if you believe one way or another, makes you either a non-Christian or just another variety of Christian. I liken it to the idea that the ancient Jews did not know the dividing line is between one day to the next day. They knew it occurred sometime between when the sun sets and three stars appear in the night. But to be sure they followed the laws for the holy days such as the Sabbath, they start Sabbath starting at sunset Friday and ending on Saturday when three stars appear in the sky.

But in all things, whether the thing being discussed is essential or nonessential, Christians need to practice charity.

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I have been exploring St. Augustine’s maxim: “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

From that, I believe all “true” Christians are unified in the essentials such as believing Jesus is both God and Man.

+1

I read "The City of God" by St. Augustine when I was in college. In fact, I just found my copy on the bookshelf...
I'll have to explore it again.

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It's a simple prayer. It asks her to pray for us. It doesn't ask her to forgive or sins or anything else she can't do.
We also ask other people to pray and pray with them.

Indeed.

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But in all things, whether the thing being discussed is essential or nonessential, Christians need to practice charity.

Yessir.