quote:

I loaded 3 mags with 9mm ammo from my tailgate and I put everything away and went to my front seat.

About a minute later, I was surrounded by 5 of Miami Dade PD's finest. All with weapons drawn and trained on me. Including an AR15.

Damn, the more I read this, the more I'm pissed. Based on this exact writing, who else on here thinks these cops acted professionally? Luckily, OP didn't suddenly have a coughing fit, or he probably would be in a morgue right now.

Seems heavy handed to me?

Here in Idaho, folks open carry even in Winco
And no permit needed for CCW
Everybody is polite, LEO's are your shooting buddies unless you point a gun at them
then your thoroughly fucked...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigmoid,

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
Ok, Artie pointed out one of my concerns, but I'd like to hear from our resident attorneys

You are aware that ArtieS is, in fact, an attorney here in Florida, where the incident took place, ¿si?

Knowing him personally, as I do, I kind of think that his posted reaction was done with a solid knowledge of Florida law.

Actually, I did not know Artie was an attorney. Had I known that, I would have phrased my comments differently. Thanks for the info though.

re the bolded,,,

why?

What is the right way to approach "a man with a gun" in a vehicle?

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:


1 - The guns drawn angle given the described circumstances seems way over the top.
2 - Search of the vehicle? On what grounds given the circumstances?
3 - Search of the wife? On what grounds?

but you have to put yourself into their position...all they have is a call about a man with a gun call....would you just saunter up and strike up a conversation with, "Good day citizen" ? Prolly not...

Actually yes. I do expect police officers to approach me without threatening me if I am not presenting a threat. A big reason for the schism between LE and the public originated in the practice of instantly dominating the situation and sorting it out afterwards. I’m not a subject, don’t treat me as such. I respect LE and I know some folks are never happy. But it’s a big deal to approach someone with a loaded weapon raised.

When you think of “the public” as an abstract idea it’s easy to think you are serving the greater good by dominating everyone you suspect. But when you think of “the public” as this person in front of you right now, it should be clear that you are not serving, protecting, being polite or professional to the public by these actions.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:


1 - The guns drawn angle given the described circumstances seems way over the top.
2 - Search of the vehicle? On what grounds given the circumstances?
3 - Search of the wife? On what grounds?

1. They react to the call they get-not what is actually going on (ie, someone playing with some ammo and loading mags)
2. Don't need a warrant to search a car (go look it up) and I'd say they would be covered under exigent circumstances also
3. another person presented themselves into the scenario of a man with a gun call...of course they can search her purse for a gun. (if she had stayed away they would not have searched her purse)

Now, that being said, there is another way to address the call...but you have to put yourself into their position...all they have is a call about a man with a gun call....would you just saunter up and strike up a conversation with, "Good day citizen" ? Prolly not...

let's not beat up the cops who were doing their jobs of investigating crime-turns out no crime and cops go away....

the problem is that someone who called it in was frightened of a man loading magazines in a public area...(maybe not the smartest thing to do-but certainly not illegal)
because that citizens was scared of a big bad gun

1- The greatest question isn't what the cops knew or did not know. The greatest question is "Was the activity on the original call given to law enforcement an actual crime as defined in the revised statues?" If the answer is no, I damn well expect officers to saunter up and strike up a conversation. Nothing pisses me off any worse to where I yell at the radio when I hear another agency I work with do this exact thing with someone carrying a rifle while walking down a roadway during hunting season.

2- Exigent circumstances of what? A guy got called in on for not breaking the law, so we're going to search his car because he got called in on for not breaking the law. That isn't exigent circumstances, my friend. That is shady policing.

3- Again, if the original action was not illegal, I don't give a flying fuck how many people present themselves into the "situation".

If cops are too scared to have consensual encounters with gun owners without rolling five deep to a BS call of someone loading magazines, they just don't need to be the police. Two, yeah I could see sending two. But, this freaking out on "ERMAGHAD MAN WITH A GUN" is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. You can use good tactics in these calls and not roll up five deep with guns drawn. You can use good officer safety, ,because, well shit, you get paid to read a situation and use good decision making skills.

Either it is illegal, or it isn't. If its not, then certainly a call to the chief is in order. If that doesn't work, I suggest to people around here having your attorney to send a letter to the city attorney, as well as the chief promising legal action for use of force violation, and search and seizure violation, to which according to the OP's account at face value, his Rights were in fact violated.

The police have to understand that this type of crap isn't going to be tolerated. The sole factor of the presence of a gun (alone) does not warrant rolling up five deep with guns drawn. I don't care what day it is. Constitutional Rights don't have a shelf life, they don't apply on some days, and not others. They apply every day. Or they don't. And if they don't, we're screwed.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
What is the right way to approach "a man with a gun" in a vehicle?

Not all man with a gun calls are the same, and you can't have one set of rules that dictate how you respond.

1- The mere presence of a gun doesn't dictate a set of rules. It doesn't. I live in a metro area that is in one of the most gun friendly states that there are. We get "man with gun" calls frequently. You have to ask questions. What is he doing? What type of gun is it? Where is he now? etc. It is NOT illegal to possess a gun in most all places. The parking lot of a store is one that I would say is quite frequent that lots of people possess guns. How do you roll up to that? One, maybe two units using good unknown risk traffic stop tactics.

You ask those questions and dude is pointing the gun at passerbys? Yeah, you roll up five deep and take the vehicle in a felony stop. The difference in the two is one activity is illegal, presenting a danger to the public at large, and the other is not. Merely possessing a gun isn't illegal.

2- Location, location, location- This along with time of day is probably the biggest factor in elevating a response. Is it a high crime area, that can certainly be a factor.

3- Can't use good unknown risk traffic stop tactics? Call the person out of the vehicle. Bring them back to you. Yeah, you can pat them down based upon what's reasonable. You can also talk to them without acting like a commando mind with a potato peelers ass.

Mere possess of a gun alone is not a crime on face value.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
That is some absolute bullshit. I’d be flipping my shit.

If I'd been approached like that, I'm afraid I may have needed some new drawers immediately afterward.

As for calls to the chief and all that business, is there any benefit at all to finding a polite way to say (in a letter, presumably) something to the effect of, "Hey, I appreciate the quick response and the work you do, but lighten the heck up"?

Or would that just be adding fuel to an unnecessary fire?

Mr. Jones, as usual, absolutely nails the legal, practical and appropriate responses.

Thank you.

Well at least you had something gun related in your hands.

I've had the police point guns at me for:

- Wearing an empty holster
- Not opening the door for some knucklehead who wanted to visit my sister who then called 911 and claimed I was holding her hostage
- Loading pallets into a truck
- Moving a safe out of a house
- Being with an alarm tech who hit a panic alarm that was supposed to be in test mode

I haven't been shot, but this is why I'm a big proponent of calm, cool, and collected when it comes to officers pointing guns at people. I've been at the end of the working end of an officer's gun enough times that I don't want anybody jumpy on the opposite side.

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:
Mr. Jones, as usual, absolutely nails the legal, practical and appropriate responses.

Mr. Jones is really a pretty cool guy. It was a pleasure and a privilege to meet him, several years ago.

Mike --

You didn't ask them to step in close to you, so you could get a group selfie?

quote:

All in all it was a good experience.

yeah , that would have made my whole weekend pretty complete.

I wonder if the store security had you on c.c.t.v. ?
and if they ( The leo's)contacted the rp with results

This message has been edited. Last edited by: bendable,

LR, they never got close to each other. There was one to my right, one to my left, one to my rear, and one directly in front of me. #5 left early once he determined is was not worth his time.

Seriously, I was never concerned for my safety or pooping my pants. I was more embarrassed that my wife saw me on the curb, surrounded by LE. Initially, I really thought that I was going to be cuffed and put face down in the concrete. They saw all of the Thin Blue Line stuff on my car and hat and asked me what department that I retired from. If I had dreads and drove an Altima, I think that things would have gone differently.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Mike --

You didn't ask them to step in close to you, so you could get a group selfie?

quote:

Originally posted by Ironmike57:
LR, they never got close to each other. There was one to my right, one to my left, one to my rear, and one directly in front of me. #5 left early once he determined is was not worth his time.

Seriously, I was never concerned for my safety or pooping my pants. I was more embarrassed that my wife saw me on the curb, surrounded by LE. Initially, I really thought that I was going to be cuffed and put face down in the concrete. They saw all of the Thin Blue Line stuff on my car and hat and asked me what department that I retired from. If I had dreads and drove an Altima, I think that things would have gone differently.

Considering how unprofessional they were with you, yes, I suspect the alternate you would have been eating concrete.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:
Mr. Jones, as usual, absolutely nails the legal, practical and appropriate responses.

Mr. Jones is really a pretty cool guy. It was a pleasure and a privilege to meet him, several years ago.

I'll echo that.

quote:

Originally posted by Ironmike57:
LR, they never got close to each other. There was one to my right, one to my left, one to my rear, and one directly in front of me.

All you had to do was duck and they would have shot each other.

It may have been imprudent to mess with those magazines where somebody could see you, but this seems like a gross over-reaction. And I wonder if the caller may have "embellished" his/her story.

Thank you Mr. Jones.

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:
It may have been imprudent to mess with those magazines where somebody could see you, but this seems like a gross over-reaction. And I wonder if the caller may have "embellished" his/her story.

You could always play the tape.