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Picture of Blume9mm
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You mean a country might actually do a 'straw' purchase and turn around and sell guns they purchased to another country? Surely we can't have that!


My Native American Name:
"Runs with Scissors"
 
Posts: 4441 | Location: Greenville, SC | Registered: January 30, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
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Pretty sure the guns in question were technically and legally American-made. Some German-sourced parts were involved but the bulk of the guns were 'Made in USA'. Merkel and her cronies just got into a lather because they were made by a German-owned subsidiary, therefore by relation making them 'German guns' regardless of their actual country of manufacture.

Back 2013 or 2014, I'm sure Cohen was just GLAD that someone in the US Gov't came to SIG NH to buy some of their guns, even if it likely was the CIA and not the Pentagon that instigated the deal.

So as an aside...if the Pentagon loads up a C-130 or two and ships pallets of M17s to Afghanistan (I'd say that place qualifies as a 'war zone') for deployment to US personnel, does that ALSO violate "German laws"? Roll Eyes
 
Posts: 8983 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by BansheeOne:
German arms export laws are generally prickly. The basic rule is don't, unless you have satisfactorily established that it's not going to increase existing tensions in a region, be used in aggressive conflict, and these days also for human rights violations (the current German government wrote into its coalition agreement to stop all shipments to any party involved in the Yemen war, and just slapped a two-month ban even for stuff already greenlighted for Saudi Arabia over the Kashoggi affair).

There is a blank waiver for NATO and EU members as well as allies of equal standing, namely Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and, in practice if not so much words, Israel. But even authorizations for those are now dependent upon end user certificates assuring the stuff is not going to be passed on to others, sorta like under ITAR (whatever good that is). HK once even got in trouble for guns from a shipment to Mexican federal authorities showing up with police in the state of Chiapas, which was deemed a crisis area for the human rights situation there.




Why did HK stop selling guns to Israel? Is this their policy, or is it German law they have to follow?



If it's the law, I can kind of give them a pass. If it's their own policy, then it's beyond disturbing.
 
Posts: 525 | Location: Texas | Registered: September 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
SIGforum's Berlin
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Picture of BansheeOne
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Frankly, I wasn't even aware of that and had to look it up; I might have heard of it at the time, but right now found more English than German reports on it.

quote:
Germany's 'deadliest company' pledges to stop selling guns to crisis regions

Heckler & Koch, whose weapons have killed 2 million people, vows to end sales to warzones and countries falling short of corruption and democracy standards

Ben Knight
in Berlin

Fri 8 Sep 2017 14.47 BST
Last modified on Wed 13 Sep 2017 12.35 BST

Heckler & Koch, the German weapons manufacturer whose guns are estimated to have killed more than 2 million people since the company was founded in 1949, has quietly adopted the most ethical sales policy of any gunmaker in the world.

The company has pledged no longer to sell arms into warzones or to countries that violate corruption and democracy standards, including Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, or any African countries.

Though never officially announced, the new strategy was included in Heckler & Koch’s latest yearly financial report, and confirmed at an annual general meeting in August. A spokesman said that the firm had “withdrawn from the crisis regions of this world”.

The move makes Heckler & Koch the first arms company to have a more ethical export control policy than its own government. The German economic affairs ministry declined to comment, saying it never discusses individual company decisions.

Heckler & Koch – sometimes called Germany’s deadliest company by activists – said it would now sell only to “green countries,” which it defined according to three criteria: membership of Nato or “Nato-equivalent” (Japan, Switzerland, Australia and New Zealand); Transparency International’s corruption perceptions index; and the Economist Intelligence Unit’s democracy index.

Company directors have also promised to consider setting up a compensation fund for victims of its guns, although it remains unclear how such a fund would work. German veteran anti-arms-trade campaigner Jürgen Grässlin pointed out that such an initiative would be “unique anywhere in the world”.

The new plan represents a startling change of heart for a company that, in 2010, was caught illegally selling its high-powered G36 assault rifles to Mexico. Over the past 65 years, Heckler & Koch guns have been licensed to – among others – Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey and Myanmar, from where they have made their way into conflicts in virtually every part of the world.

There are an estimated 15 million of the firm’s G3 rifles in circulation alone, and Grässlin has estimated that one person gets killed by a Heckler & Koch bullet every 13 minutes.

Having been buried in the annual report published in March, the policy was not confirmed until what activists called an “absurd” AGM in the small town of Sulz am Neckar in southern Germany on 15 August.

[...]


https://www.theguardian.com/gl...ons-heckler-and-koch

As the article notes, HK have long been the target of activists, including crusading stakeholders of the company, and generally have a "merchants of death" reputation in parts of the German public. I believe this move was a reaction to the Mexican G36 affair that also put legal pressure on them; it goes well beyond restrictions of German law. I read it as concentrating on the safe business which makes them most of their money, the rest being cut as not worth the legal and PR hassle. Israel is a bit of collateral damage there, since I'm not aware of any HK guns in Israeli service other than small amounts of specialized items like the P11 underwater pistol.

As noted, the country is technically not covered by the blanket waiver for Western allies in German export law, but defense co-operation has been very close ever since both sides re-established diplomatic relations in the 50s, for obvious historical reasons. They were somewhat clandestine for a long time due to political sensibilities on either end; for example, the Gal-class submarines of the 70s were essentially German Type 206s, but built in the UK. Today's Dolphins are openly built at HDW in Kiel, and a third of their cost is paid for by Germany, to regular outrage by German do-gooders who point out their possible role as nuclear weapons platforms.
 
Posts: 2413 | Location: Berlin, Germany | Registered: April 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BansheeOne:
Frankly, I wasn't even aware of that and had to look it up; I might have heard of it at the time, but right now found more English than German reports on it.

quote:
Germany's 'deadliest company' pledges to stop selling guns to crisis regions

Heckler & Koch, whose weapons have killed 2 million people, vows to end sales to warzones and countries falling short of corruption and democracy standards

Ben Knight
in Berlin

Fri 8 Sep 2017 14.47 BST
Last modified on Wed 13 Sep 2017 12.35 BST

Heckler & Koch, the German weapons manufacturer whose guns are estimated to have killed more than 2 million people since the company was founded in 1949, has quietly adopted the most ethical sales policy of any gunmaker in the world.

The company has pledged no longer to sell arms into warzones or to countries that violate corruption and democracy standards, including Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, or any African countries.

Though never officially announced, the new strategy was included in Heckler & Koch’s latest yearly financial report, and confirmed at an annual general meeting in August. A spokesman said that the firm had “withdrawn from the crisis regions of this world”.

The move makes Heckler & Koch the first arms company to have a more ethical export control policy than its own government. The German economic affairs ministry declined to comment, saying it never discusses individual company decisions.

Heckler & Koch – sometimes called Germany’s deadliest company by activists – said it would now sell only to “green countries,” which it defined according to three criteria: membership of Nato or “Nato-equivalent” (Japan, Switzerland, Australia and New Zealand); Transparency International’s corruption perceptions index; and the Economist Intelligence Unit’s democracy index.

Company directors have also promised to consider setting up a compensation fund for victims of its guns, although it remains unclear how such a fund would work. German veteran anti-arms-trade campaigner Jürgen Grässlin pointed out that such an initiative would be “unique anywhere in the world”.

The new plan represents a startling change of heart for a company that, in 2010, was caught illegally selling its high-powered G36 assault rifles to Mexico. Over the past 65 years, Heckler & Koch guns have been licensed to – among others – Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey and Myanmar, from where they have made their way into conflicts in virtually every part of the world.

There are an estimated 15 million of the firm’s G3 rifles in circulation alone, and Grässlin has estimated that one person gets killed by a Heckler & Koch bullet every 13 minutes.

Having been buried in the annual report published in March, the policy was not confirmed until what activists called an “absurd” AGM in the small town of Sulz am Neckar in southern Germany on 15 August.

[...]


https://www.theguardian.com/gl...ons-heckler-and-koch

As the article notes, HK have long been the target of activists, including crusading stakeholders of the company, and generally have a "merchants of death" reputation in parts of the German public. I believe this move was a reaction to the Mexican G36 affair that also put legal pressure on them; it goes well beyond restrictions of German law. I read it as concentrating on the safe business which makes them most of their money, the rest being cut as not worth the legal and PR hassle. Israel is a bit of collateral damage there, since I'm not aware of any HK guns in Israeli service other than small amounts of specialized items like the P11 underwater pistol.

As noted, the country is technically not covered by the blanket waiver for Western allies in German export law, but defense co-operation has been very close ever since both sides re-established diplomatic relations in the 50s, for obvious historical reasons. They were somewhat clandestine for a long time due to political sensibilities on either end; for example, the Gal-class submarines of the 70s were essentially German Type 206s, but built in the UK. Today's Dolphins are openly built at HDW in Kiel, and a third of their cost is paid for by Germany, to regular outrage by German do-gooders who point out their possible role as nuclear weapons platforms.



Thank you for the detailed response. I truly appreciate it.


HK would be the main company I used for handguns, but not selling to Israel is so immoral I can no longer do business with them.
 
Posts: 525 | Location: Texas | Registered: September 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not
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fuck you Germany!!!
 
Posts: 7796 | Location: Bismarck ND | Registered: February 19, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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