From the audio, sounds like the controller gave the fire truck permission to cross the runway, right in front of a landing Air Canada CRJ.
https://www.foxnews.com/travel...uardia-airport-close

A sad morning.

I thought this NY Times article was well written for being one of the first reports out. Summary, controller gave the firetruck permission to cross the runway (audio clip in the article), then tried to get them to stop. Canada Air Regional Jet was landing. The two pilots are dead, 41 passengers and crew taken to the hospital, 32 have been released. LaGuardia is closed until 2:00pm. at least 500 flights cancelled.

Yeah, the controller is at fault for this one. He said the magic word “cross”. I believe he scanned his runway before saying it but had a lapse in short term memory and forgot about Air Canada. Very sad day in aviation.

LaGuardia is one of the most understaffed airports in the country. (in regards to ATC's)

Hopefully the remaining hospitalized passengers/crew are OK and released soon.

For the folks who know much more than I, what obligation does the firetruck have to observe incoming equipment before crossing? I'm not trying to blame the firefighters, but I know almost everything around aviation has redundancy.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeGLI:
For the folks who know much more than I, what obligation does the firetruck have to observe incoming equipment before crossing? I'm not trying to blame the firefighters, but I know almost everything around aviation has redundancy.

The tower controls traffic on the ground. A firetruck has to get permission to cross a runway. Sounds like they were given permission to cross. Then the controller realized there was a plane landing and tried to get the truck to stop, but it was too late or the truck didn't hear the transmission.

quote:

Originally posted by comet24:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeGLI:
For the folks who know much more than I, what obligation does the firetruck have to observe incoming equipment before crossing? I'm not trying to blame the firefighters, but I know almost everything around aviation has redundancy.

The tower controls traffic on the ground. A firetruck has to get permission to cross a runway. Sounds like they were given permission to cross. Then the controller realized there was a plane landing and tried to get the truck to stop, but it was too late or the truck didn't hear the transmission.

According to Gemini AI:

the typical touchdown speed for a Bombardier CRJ-900 is approximately 130 to 135 knots (149 to 155 mph) based on standard operating weights.

La Guardia's firetrucks are mainly 62,000 lbs when fully loaded with crew, gear, water, and foam.

That heavy of a fire truck isn't going to accelerate like a sports car or stop on a dime, and things are going to happen fast with the plane traveling ~150 mph.

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Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.

I read an earlier report that the plane was teaseling at 24 MPH when it hit the truck. Maybe that info was wrong.

^^^ I read a passenger report that the pilot braked the plane exceptionally hard and lots of passenger head injuries. I have no idea what speed it had decelerated to prior to hitting the fire truck.

I'd imagine knowing impact speed would take NTSB analyzing the block box.

The FoxNews report says 24 mph.

I'd bet the ground controller is going thru hell about now.

Do vehicles crossing an active runway double check to see that the way is clear? Apparently, the vehicle occupants survived.

quote:

I thought this NY Times article was well written for being one of the first reports out.

One requires an account with the NYT to read the article (the NYT, in general, can GTH). Can you copy and paste the article?

Would the fire truck and pilots of a landing plane be talking to the same person in the tower? The fire truck would be talking to the ground controller and my limited understanding is that landing planes don't switch to the ground controller until the plane is on the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeGLI:
For the folks who know much more than I, what obligation does the firetruck have to observe incoming equipment before crossing? I'm not trying to blame the firefighters, but I know almost everything around aviation has redundancy.

All traffic has a responsibility to see and avoid. Being dark, the CRJ would have been very visible with bright landing lights on. The pilots would have had difficulty seeing the fire truck if it didn't have all their lights flashing, but it would have been somewhat visible, presuming there wasn't anything obscuring visibility (fog, precip). I've seen fire trucks either way, all lights flashing or not flashing.

But the controller has full responsibility to keep the runway protected, only clearing traffic onto the runway when there is no conflict. Takeoff, landing, and crossing traffic.

Think of it like a traffic light at an intersection. The light controls who is allowed to enter the intersection, but drivers have a responsibility to look. We all know it isn't feasible much of the time for a driver to visually assure nobody is about to enter the intersection from the cross street or turn left in front of you, but you at least should be scanning as best you can.

As with the traffic light, pilots tend to trust the Tower to have protected the runway for us when we're landing or taking off. But it is usual to make an effort to visually verify it is clear. That includes both pilots carefully scanning the runway and crossing taxiways for any traffic which might become a conflict. At busy airports there are a multitude of things going on, and errors happen.

In this case, the controller(s) were handed an extra complexity with an incoming emergency aircraft, having to coordinate Crash Fire Rescue in addition to what is usually a complicated fast-paced situation.

The tower controller is responsible for the runway. Ground control is responsible for the taxiways. Normally they are on different frequencies and the ground controller coordinates with Tower to cross traffic across a runway. Sometimes during low traffic periods such as late at night, Tower and Ground are combined into one person, and sometimes onto just one frequency.

The cockpit voice recorder along with tower tapes will provide clarity on who saw what when. It is possible the aircraft was past the point of possibly going around when the truck entered the runway.

On the ground in urban areas it can be very difficult to discern what one is seeing. It is a sea of lights, both on the airport and in surrounding areas. At LGA looking towards the landing aircraft from the fire truck would have been that sea of lights. Taxiway, runway, other aircraft on the ground, vehicles, buildings, street lights off airport, etc. The aircraft after landing wouldn't have had as bad a situation seeing a vehicle because they were looking towards the bay. Determining if something is moving directly towards you and/or at what speed is very difficult at night, and further made worse with a backdrop full of other lights.

Both may have seen each other but presumed early in the evolving situation that there would be no conflict.

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:

quote:

I thought this NY Times article was well written for being one of the first reports out.

One requires an account with the NYT to read the article (the NYT, in general, can GTH). Can you copy and paste the article?

You're doing it wrong...Get thee an AdBlocker!

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Would the fire truck and pilots of a landing plane be talking to the same person in the tower? The fire truck would be talking to the ground controller and my limited understanding is that landing planes don't switch to the ground controller until the plane is on the ground.

No, ground is a separate frequency from the tower which handles takeoffs/landings

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:

quote:

I thought this NY Times article was well written for being one of the first reports out.

One requires an account with the NYT to read the article (the NYT, in general, can GTH). Can you copy and paste the article?

It let's me read an article or two for free but I'm not able to get back in. The
news story is posted just about everywhere now.

quote:

Originally posted by ryan81986:

ground is a separate frequency from the tower which handles takeoffs/landings

It has been many years since I last flew into LaGuardia, but the frequencies are burned into my memory: Tower 118.7, Ground 121.7

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

my limited understanding is that landing planes don't switch to the ground controller until the plane is on the ground.

On the ground and clear of the active runway (i.e. after leaving the runway and entering a taxiway, or an inactive runway that is being used for taxiing. Aircraft still on the active runway normally remain on tower frequency, even after slowing to taxi speed or stopping.