WASHINGTON— Federal authorities sought to take back guns from thousands of people the background check system should have blocked from buying weapons because they had criminal records, mental health issues or other problems that would disqualify them.

A USA TODAY review found that the FBI issued more than 4,000 requests last year for agents from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives to retrieve guns from prohibited buyers.

It's the largest number of such retrieval requests in 10 years, according to bureau records – an especially striking statistic after revelations that a breakdown in the background check system allowed a troubled Air Force veteran to buy a rifle later used to kill 26 worshipers at a Texas church last month.

The FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) vets millions of gun purchase transactions every year. But the thousands of gun seizure requests highlight persistent problems in a system where analysts must complete background checks within three days of the proposed purchase. If the background check is not complete within the 72-hour time limit, federal law allows the sale to go forward. ATF agents are asked to take back the guns if the FBI later finds these sales should have been denied.


In addition to the public safety risks, the ATF agents tasked with retrievingthe banned weapons from unauthorized gun owners across the country are exposed to potentially dangerous confrontations.

"These are people who shouldn't have weapons in the first place, and it just takes one to do something that could have tragic consequences," said David Chipman, a former ATF official who helped oversee the firearm retrieval program. "You don't want ATF to stand for 'after the fact.'"

It was not immediately clear how many gun seizure requests agents successfully executed last year or how many weapons were ultimately recovered. Since multiple firearms can be purchased in a single transaction, the actual number of guns that should have been banned could be even higher.

Chipman, now a senior policy adviser for the Giffords Law Center which advocates for more gun restrictions, called the retrieval process "uniquely dangerous."

Stephen Morris, a former assistant FBI director, said FBI examiners who review gun purchasers' backgrounds also recognize the risks.

"They are very aware of the inherent risk to law enforcement officers when they (seek) a firearm retrieval," said Morris, who recently oversaw the bureau's background check operation based in West Virginia. "They feel tremendous pressure to make a determination" within the three-day period.

Review of the gun vetting system

The sudden spike in gun retrieval directives is attributed in part to the record 27.5 million background checks fielded by NICS examiners last year.

Yet the increase is notable in the wake of last month's decision by Attorney General Jeff Sessions to launch a sweeping review of the vetting system after a reporting breakdown allowed a troubled Air Force veteran to purchase a rifle. Devin Kelley later used the rifle in the Nov. 5 massacre at a Texas church.


Air Force officials have acknowledged that the service failed to transmit a record of Kelley's court martial for domestic assault to the FBI that would have made him ineligible for the 2016 purchase of the rifle. And on Tuesday, the Air Force said a preliminary review concluded that the reporting error was part of a broader problem within the service, indicating that "similar reporting lapses occurred at other locations" within the Air Force.

The Kelley case highlights longstanding problems with government databases that are rife with incomplete or inadequate record submissions. Morris said that NICS continues to depend on those databases that largely rely on voluntary record submissions from law enforcement agencies, the military and mental health authorities to guard against unauthorized firearm purchases.

Mixed success rate

The government's success record when it comes to retrieving guns that were improperly purchased has also been mixed.

The ATF declined to provide information on the 4,170 gun purchases the FBI referred for seizure last year. They reflect a substantial increase from 2,892 requests the previous year.

The FBI said the ATF is not required to report back on the status of the retrieval efforts.

Yet in 2004, the Justice Department's inspector general found that the ATF's retrieval efforts were plagued by staffing shortages, technological inefficiencies and a general lack of urgency that resulted in recovery delays of up to a year.

"ATF agents did not consider most of the prohibited persons who had obtained guns to be dangerous and therefore did not consider it a priority to retrieve the firearm promptly,'' report concluded.

A separate inspector general's report last year found marked improvement. Of 125 transactions examined between 2008 and 2014, investigators found that the ATF recovered 116 – or 93% – of the firearms.

Of the nine outstanding cases, five buyers could not be located. Two had already re-sold the firearms. One case was turned over to local authorities. And another was not pursued because the agency "did not have the resources to retrieve the firearm," the report found.

Powerful gun industry

Larry Keane, general counsel for the firearm industry trade association National Shooting Sports Foundation, noted that the FBI's seizure directives represent only a small portion in the flood of of transactions that the bureau has been processing in recent years. On Black Friday alone, FBI examiners fielded more than 200,000 background check requests, a one-day record for the system.

"What we support are more resources for the NICS operation to process the volume of requests," Keane said.

Keane said there has been no discussion in the industry about extending the three-day time limit for completing background checks, adding that more than 90% of all checks are completed almost immediately after the request is forwarded to the FBI. He said less than 1% of all firearms transactions are later referred to the ATF for retrieval.

"We don't really see much reason for changing" the three-day time limit, Keane said, adding that some gun dealers elect not to transfer weapons until the FBI completes the check, even if it takes longer than three days.

However, the former ATF official Chipman called the 72-hour provision "reckless" and a concession to "the powerful gun industry that nobody wants to irritate."

For now, much of the attention on gun policy by lawmakers has focused on boosting compliance with current reporting requirements to the FBI.

Last month, a bipartisan group of senators led by Republican Sen. John Cornyn of Texas introduced legislation that would penalize federal agencies that fail to properly report relevant criminal and mental health records and provides incentives to states to improve their overall reporting to the NICS repository. The bill also directs more federal funding to the accurate reporting of domestic violence records.

“For years agencies and states haven’t complied with the law, failing to upload these critical records without consequence,” Cornyn said. "Just one record that’s not properly reported can lead to tragedy."

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So why aren't these 4,130 instances of a prohibited person seeking to buy a firearm acted on IMMEDIATELY?

For example, based on my experience as an 01 licensee, when the Virginia Firearms Transaction Center (VTFC) returns a DENIED response, why are the Troopers not waiting by the buyer's car to take them into custody?

Could it be that 50% of the DENIED responses I've gotten in the last 10 years (all four of them) were later changed to APPROVED?

In fact I just had one where VFTC said it was DENIED because of some bureaucratic Charlie foxtrot, but they were taking action to have it changed to APPROVED. The buyer didn't have to file an appeal-VFTC did the leg work for them because, in their words, "We see this all the time."

4000/25 mill is .00016 pct error rate

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
4000/25 mill is .00016 pct error rate

0.016%, I think.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
4000/25 mill is .00016 pct error rate

Presumably a very great many of the ones granted were proper, so only the ones which should not have been granted count. So, the error rate was 4000 out of 4000, or 100%, right?

Are these people being compensated for the cost of the firearms that are being confiscated?

quote:

Originally posted by Colby Bruce:
Are these people being compensated for the cost of the firearms that are being confiscated?

If you are found with your stash, do they pay you the street value or seize it as evidence?

quote:

Originally posted by Colby Bruce:
Are these people being compensated for the cost of the firearms that are being confiscated?

If they are being confiscated because they were a felon or other prohibited person, why would they be?
I check those boxes because I know the answer to the questions.

I wonder how many of those were successfully recovered, and at what actual cost each.

Does it take 2guys, 1car, 3days, and various hotel and other expenses to get back a pistol, for instance? Do 77% give them back without even an argument, or is it 6%, or what?

Do we (they) know, for instance, how many times they've both (a) not retrieved one, and (b) that specific gun was used by that specific person in a subsequent crime?

In other words, is there hard data - even if inaccessible to the public - that clearly demonstrates how necessary, effective, and costly (or not) this exercise is?

One would hope so. But I wonder...

I'd love to see the data if it exists.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:

quote:

Originally posted by Colby Bruce:
Are these people being compensated for the cost of the firearms that are being confiscated?

If they are being confiscated because they were a felon or other prohibited person, why would they be?
I check those boxes because I know the answer to the questions.

There is no requirement to. The one time I've dealt with this personally the guy (picked up after 3 business days and no response. Came back a denial a week or so after that) showed back up a few days later with an ATF agent. I bought it back as a used gun (so he definitely didn't get all his money back), but I could have just said tough shit.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
In addition to the public safety risks, the ATF agents tasked with retrievingthe banned weapons from unauthorized gun owners across the country are exposed to potentially dangerous confrontations.

No worries, they can just get Lon Horiuchi and a few helos from the Texas National Guard to back them up.

USA Today huh? They keep referring to that shitstain church-shooter as an "Air Force veteran". Maybe that's technically correct (doesn't seem right to me) but they could certainly find another way to describe him (if they didn't hate veterans).

As someone who has been falsely DENIED by NICS I find the notion of immediate action on a denial to be a tad frightening!

If I leave my SSN off my 4473 I run the risk of a denial. The last time it happened was when the 4473 was being run on the transfer for a SUPPRESSOR!!!!!

So after waiting 13 months, my form 4 was approved, the stamp issued, and I get DENIED at the dealer??!? The dealer reran the 4473 after I provided my SSN and it went through, but if you believe the NICS check is infallible you are GREATLY mistaken.

Did they ever recover those guns they lost in Mexico during the Obama administration?

quote:

For example, based on my experience as an 01 licensee, when the Virginia Firearms Transaction Center (VTFC) returns a DENIED response, why are the Troopers not waiting by the buyer's car to take them into custody?

I've actually seen it happen more than once. Buddy of mine spent the day in jail because of some botched records that said he had an outstanding warrant in another state.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
I wonder how many of those were successfully recovered, and at what actual cost each.

Does it take 2guys, 1car, 3days, and various hotel and other expenses to get back a pistol, for instance? Do 77% give them back without even an argument, or is it 6%, or what?

Do we (they) know, for instance, how many times they've both (a) not retrieved one, and (b) that specific gun was used by that specific person in a subsequent crime?

In other words, is there hard data - even if inaccessible to the public - that clearly demonstrates how necessary, effective, and costly (or not) this exercise is?

One would hope so. But I wonder...

I'd love to see the data if it exists.

Excellent questions, and I bet you're just as sure as I am that the data simply wasn't recorded.

Either deliberately or through incompetence, take your pick, but I'm pretty certain either way.

Every new legislation or rule ought to have to include a detailed plan regarding how it will be funded, and a mechanism for analyzing and reviewing its effectiveness and thus whether or not it should even continue at all else it would time-out after X-days/months.

In PA where they use the PICS system I was I. A gun store once when a guy was trying to buy a gun. The dealer got a call from the state police and told them to try and stall. He was arrested right in the store for a warrant.

They won't collect all those firearms. Let's say I passed a background check, purchased a firearm, then, say, three months later I needed quick cash and sold the gun to someone via a private sale.

Whatcha gonna do now, FBI? You can try shitting in your hat as far as I'm concerned. If any of these people live in states which allow private sales (and most of them do live in such states, I imagine), then just what do you think you're going to do to these people if they sold the gun, or just say that they sold the gun?

"Sorry, I sold it to someone. No, I don't know their name or where they live. Anything else?"

Or those heartbreaking boating accidents. I've had one recently. Lost everything!