They had already replaced the Evaporator Coil (which does the cooling!), so assuming the existing Air Handler is moving air, nothing will change. The Air Handler is basically an enclosure for the Fan with Supply & Return Ducts, as well as the Filter Rack landed on it, and the Control Board/Controls, etc. It is not the source of your lack of cooling problem.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
They had already replaced the Evaporator Coil (which does the cooling!), so assuming the existing Air Handler is moving air, nothing will change. The Air Handler is basically an enclosure for the Fan with Supply & Return Ducts, as well as the Filter Rack landed on it, and the Control Board/Controls, etc. It is not the source of your lack of cooling problem.

The evaporator coil in the air handler was replaced 5-6 years ago and not by the company I'm currently dealing with. With installation of the new heat pump, they simply tried to make my new heat pump work with my old air handler and existing A-coil (evap coil). They did so by replacing the piston in the metering device at the A-coil even though the new heat pump is designed to work most efficiently with a TXV metering device not a piston metering device.

All that said, only time will tell if the new air handler that is specifically engineered to work best with the new heat pump (and usually sold as a unit) will correct the poor cooling condition. Was about time to replace the old (2005) air handler anyway.

Trying to use a new heat pump with an old non-matching air handler also reduced the SEER by at least 1-1.5. So a matching system will match up SEER, compatibility and components.

We'll see ...

quote:

The evaporator coil in the air handler was replaced 5-6 years ago and not by the company I'm currently dealing with.

Well, never mind then...That is not how I read the OP. I took from your post that the Evaporator was replaced previously, AND when the new Heat Pump was installed.
I assume the new Air Handler AND a new Evaporator Coil come as a package, correct?

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

quote:

The evaporator coil in the air handler was replaced 5-6 years ago and not by the company I'm currently dealing with.

Well, never mind then...That is not how I read the OP. I took from your post that the Evaporator was replaced previously, AND when the new Heat Pump was installed.
I assume the new Air Handler AND a new Evaporator Coil come as a package, correct?

No problem, the air handler will come with a new evaporator coil. I refer to it as an A-coil. While the A-coil in the air handler is the evaporator coil in cooling mode, the coils around the heat pump become the evaporator coil when in heating mode.

quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:
When the HVAC techs left 2hrs ago, they said it would take time for the system to settle in and work efficiently.

SO my question is, How long does it take a new heat pump to settle in ??

Nice line of bullshit they're feeding you!

Around 10-15 mins of operation will get most systems up to peak efficiency.
Now, a couple hrs to bring your 80 degree house down to 72 (depending on outside temp and indoor humidity), but the system should be performing properly.

You have a couple highly experienced baboons for techs, who are relying on their yrs of experience vs training.

Unless the factory charge wasn't correct, you'd have to have a 60' line set on your 750 sq ft home (highly unlikely), in order to require an additional 1.75 lbs of refrigerant.

Do you happen to know the superheat and subcooling readings (Before and after the additional refrigerant)?

Why was the original heat pump replaced?

Wishing you luck and patience, as I'm betting you're going to be needing it for awhile.


BTW, you have nice place there!

Keep us posted on how this turns out.

Also, beautiful home you have. Really nice, and looks very well maintained. Beautiful.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:
You have a couple highly experienced baboons for techs, who are relying on their yrs of experience vs training.

Do you happen to know the superheat and subcooling readings (Before and after the additional refrigerant)?

Why was the original heat pump replaced?

I edited the quote to comment on what remains.

I have a suspicion that someone with decades of HVAC experience knows the deal. The entire time of the heat pump install, the tech was cordial and friendly. Then his mood seemed to change a bit. I sensed slight frustration as he rubbed his brow. That was when he said, "Give it time". In addition to him were two installers. He said, "It will take time and we can't sit around here and wait for the system to settle in. Call the office if there are any problems and someone will come back over". And he left.

My take is that he knew the heat pump wasn't operating correctly and either felt he couldn't fix it or it would take a significant amount of time to troubleshoot. And the thing is, this time of year ALL HVAC people are VERY busy with other customers scheduled throughout the day. He needed to "get down the road". Was either leave one customer unhappy and disappointed ... or stay and hope he could eventually sort it out but make several customers unhappy and disappointed because he couldn't get to them. So he fed me a line of BS.

I just get the feeling that when jobs are scheduled, time wise they allow what they think a job will take and there are many people promised a time throughout the day and expect a tech to their home. When on the job site and time nears other appointment times, they try to wrap things up even if issues arrive. Their recourse is, "give it time and call the office if there's still a problem." That way, the customer is rescheduled and the customers that had been promised a tech visit time later throughout the day aren't "blown off". Many without AC at all on a 98 degree day while I at least had some cooling.

After several hours and after I'd posted here, I emailed the tech with my concerns and he said to call the office and they would get someone over.

I called and they said we'll try to get someone over this afternoon but it may be tomorrow morning.

As it turned out, they were able to get a tech over. Another highly experienced tech that eventually added 1.75lbs of refrigerant. What he found was suction pressure higher than normal and very low superheat. After adding the refrigerant, he said the readings slightly improved and, "give it time".

As to why the original heat pump was replaced ... After 19yrs of service, the old heat pump had higher than expected suction pressure and poor cooling ... JUST like this brand new heat pump. Three techs with a different company than I'm now dealing with could not find and fix the issues with the old heat pump. They had no idea what was wrong.

My thinking was why would I trust a company to install a new system if they couldn't tell me what was wrong with the old? But also my thinking was that 19yrs of service and rather than throw money and parts at it ... go ahead and replace ... just with a different company, not the one that couldn't even tell me what was wrong with the old.

So now what I'm looking at is the same issues with the old AND the new heat pump ... higher than expected suction pressure and poor cooling. And what do both the old and new heat pumps have in common ?? ... the air handler.

So still working with the original new heat pump installation lead technician via email and talking it out, we decided the best course of action would be to now replace the air handler. Replace it with the air handler that would have come with the new heat pump had it been purchased and installed as a packaged system.

The air handler was paid for and ordered yesterday. I am awaiting a call concerning installation. Hope it happens soon. The lead tech said he would see that scheduling of the installation would be prioritized.

Once the air handler is installed, that will be a complete and compatible system in its entirety. There will be no excuses for pressure and temp readings out of spec. No arguing this and that, maybe this or maybe that. Either the new system works or replace it.

Just to cover the bases, I asked the lead tech a couple of questions. 1) Do you think I need to replace the refrigerant or the line set since the new heat pump has been running with an old air handler and old copper line set ?? ... He said, "No, we flushed the system with R11 and nitrogen and no need to worry". 2) Do you think I need to replace the thermostat ?? ... "No, the new air handler is a single stage air handler and the old thermostat will work fine".

I knew the answers to those questions, but wanted everything with anything to do with a new heating & cooling system asked about and talked about up front.

I am not an hvac guy and you have some professionals giving you good counsel already in this thread.


I will just add that as this has gone a long it is apparent that there were some red flags from the start and continue to be more along the way.
Wrong size unit and three guys are a couple that jumped out from the git go. Several more have popped up.

Can it be resolved with this outfit? I am going to say it is 50/50 at best. I would call the owner, explain to him where you are at with them at this point. And tell him to please send the best most experience person he has to come out and finish so that it is 100% operational when they leave.
Make sure all the paperwork for all the units is filled out and the warranty is in order. I would have concern that the new OD unit might have been compromised through some of the shenanigans to this point. Including not being correctly sized.
Again, I hope you get all this resolved. And everything is gtg for the duration. I am a bit skeptical at this point though.

I think the recommendation is to always replace the line set.
I had a heat pump installed by a highly recommended local guy. Had to replace the entire thing a year later.
He stated he filed the warranty, Replacement company said he did not. Who knows. Guy was deceased

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I am not an hvac guy and you have some professionals giving you good counsel already in this thread.


I will just add that as this has gone a long it is apparent that there were some red flags from the start and continue to be more along the way.
Wrong size unit and three guys are a couple that jumped out from the git go. Several more have popped up.

Can it be resolved with this outfit? I am going to say it is 50/50 at best. I would call the owner, explain to him where you are at with them at this point. And tell him to please send the best most experience person he has to come out and finish so that it is 100% operational when they leave.
Make sure all the paperwork for all the units is filled out and the warranty is in order. I would have concern that the new OD unit might have been compromised through some of the shenanigans to this point. Including not being correctly sized.
Again, I hope you get all this resolved. And everything is gtg for the duration. I am a bit skeptical at this point though.

At the heating & cooling office yesterday when I paid in full for a new air handler, the lady volunteered that registration on the new heat pump had already been sent off and I would be receiving mail from the heat pump manufacturer. Comes with 10yrs on parts.

I've been reluctant to say the new heat pump is faulty at this point because 1) It's indicating out of spec readings virtually the same as my old heat pump. 2) It is not mated to a recommended compatible air handler.

Once the new air handler is installed I fully expect all readings to be optimal from a matched system and if not, will not listen to any excuses or "in a perfect world" rebuttal.

Also if not working perfectly and the tech tries to get me to go along and get along ... I will try and contact the company owner.

For 19yrs I had a 2.5 ton system that worked perfectly for the vast majority of those years. The new replacement system is also 2.5 ton. Sometimes there is more to consider than just square feet. I don't have a feeling at all that this is the wrong size but I base that solely from living in this house for 19yrs with a 2.5 ton system.

One indication that a system is too large is short cycling. I have never experienced that with a 2.5 ton system here. On hot days, the system would cycle about 3 times an hour, which is about normal.

If you get them to start over, have them replace the line set

quote:

Originally posted by oldbill123:
If you get them to start over, have them replace the line set

One might think that would be a recommendation from the heating & cooling company if even remotely necessary. Replacement of the line set means more $$ for them.

Thanks every one for thoughts on this journey and compliments on my little cottage.

Haven't heard anything today yet from the heating & cooling company but just ordered the air handler yesterday. Friday if I still haven't heard anything, I will give them a call. Or I might email the tech for an update sooner than that.

When we replaced ours and moved to the new refrigerant they would not use the old lines and new lines were run up through the ceiling and over to the new outside unit.

Appears like Exam Man hit it on the nose, none of the companies sent diagnostic techs, just general installers, none found the problem and just suggested tossing parts, they just guessed wrong on which part you needed.

Hopefully the new handler will fix you up, nothing like a heat wave to get AC sales up.

My daughters system is 15+ years old, twice when we had "top men" out from big AC companies their solution was to replace the whole system, with all kinds of reasons, mostly that her system ran the old refrigerant and they either didn't carry it or wanted big money to put some in.

The AC company we use, local, smaller, came out, put in some refrigerant to get it cooling while we ordered a new A coil as you say. They installed the new unit, recharged the system and bob's your uncle. $1500 vs $12,000.

Funny part is the one company sent out a newbee for training with a "top Man" I was in the kitchen by the window when they were outside and heard him say, "it's fixable, but watch and learn as I sell a whole system here" So I let him make his pitch, all the reasons for the change, and basically said "no, we know it's fixable, heard everything you said outside, we'll call someone else to fix it" Adios MoFo!

Am I missing something here?

Don't you HAVE to replace the lineset when changing to R-410A as it uses a larger diameter tube than older refrigerants?

Well Well ... five minutes after my last post, the heating & cooling company called. They will be here at 8 or a little after tomorrow morning to install the air handler.

I emailed the tech stating that I would need someone here besides installers, to fully check and ensure system operation is in spec.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Am I missing something here?

Don't you HAVE to replace the lineset when changing to R-410A as it uses a larger diameter tube than older refrigerants?

I have not found that to be so. Everything I've researched for 2.5 ton R410A says 3/4 suction line and 3/8 liquid line. Same as my old R22 2.5 ton system (that had been converted to R407C).

The tech I'm dealing with says the line set is good to go because they flushed with R11 and nitrogen. They make money off line sets, so don't know why he wouldn't recommend replacement if there was even a remote need to.

They used the same lines when they installed a new unit using 410C.

Might sound stupid, but go outside and make sure the breaker to the unit is even on. You might be getting just a fan. It's been known to happen

quote:

Originally posted by SIG228:
Might sound stupid, but go outside and make sure the breaker to the unit is even on. You might be getting just a fan. It's been known to happen

Good idea. All power is on to the new unit and it is definitely cooling a little bit. Just poor cooling with pressures and temps out of spec or as expected.

The day of install, the tech checked amps at the compressor and fan. All was good as far as power.

quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:
I have a suspicion that someone with decades of HVAC experience knows the deal.

So he fed me a line of BS.

I can tell you, I know the 'DEAL'.
You have complete baboons showing up at your house to work on your HVAC system!

Competent techs don't tell clients BS stories to cover for possible time constraints!

Seems like you're questioning my response and trying to make excuses to cover for their BS.
I will tell you straight out, they DO NOT know WHAT they are doing... !

quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:
As it turned out, they were able to get a tech over. Another highly experienced tech that eventually added 1.75lbs of refrigerant. What he found was suction pressure higher than normal and very low superheat. After adding the refrigerant, he said the readings slightly improved and, "give it time".

Again, you seem to be defending them... I thought you come here for advice?
And as it turns out, you just proved my point again about thier lack of training.
If you have 'high suction pressure and low superheat', YOU DO NOT ADD REFRIGERANT to the system!

And again with the, 'give it time'... so I can climb in my van and leave!

quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:
As to why the original heat pump was replaced ... After 19yrs of service, the old heat pump had higher than expected suction pressure and poor cooling ... JUST like this brand new heat pump. Three techs with a different company than I'm now dealing with could not find and fix the issues with the old heat pump. They had no idea what was wrong.

My thinking was why would I trust a company to install a new system if they couldn't tell me what was wrong with the old? But also my thinking was that 19yrs of service and rather than throw money and parts at it ... go ahead and replace ... just with a different company, not the one that couldn't even tell me what was wrong with the old.

So now what I'm looking at is the same issues with the old AND the new heat pump ... higher than expected suction pressure and poor cooling. And what do both the old and new heat pumps have in common ?? ... the air handler.

Great, so you all took a stab at an existing problem and come to the conclusion to ONLY change part of a non working system. wow

quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:
The lead tech said he would see that scheduling of the installation would be prioritized.

Your new non working system wasn't a priority when he installed it. As you stated, more calls, tell this guy some BS so we can move on down the road.

quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:
Once the air handler is installed, that will be a complete and compatible system in its entirety. There will be no excuses for pressure and temp readings out of spec. No arguing this and that, maybe this or maybe that. Either the new system works or replace it.

No, you'll still have an old line set and possibly a contaminated system due to reusing an existing lineset and evaporator coil.

quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:
I knew the answers to those questions, but wanted everything with anything to do with a new heating & cooling system asked about and talked about up front.

Did the company know that your system wasn't working properly before selling you part of a new HP system?
Did they test/diagnose anything before hand?