"Smoke a pack a day" is the only sticker on my truck. Can't wait to get my 5. They have been particularly aggressive on the elk population this year.

Took a graduate course on so called Conservation and the instructor got my attention on first day when he cited "the balance of nature is a man made hoax" as all species compete for the same space and many for same resources. He went on to show that one or more species of animals tend to dominate an eco-system and over a period of time cause ruin to it and that species decline as they will eventually over populate and destroy their food supply. What we as humans see is really only over a short period of history so we tend to not see what is really going on or tend to miss read it. An example was the elephant being endangered due to ivory hunters which took years to understand was merely a lie to promote a political agenda. While elephants population were on the decline it was because they had overpopulated the African Continent and along with prolonged drought destroyed their food supply. It seems the real problem with an ecosystem is when a species not native to that system is introduced such as the Canadian wolves being brought in to replace a smaller less aggressive species in Yellow Stone. Human influence would have been mostly correct had they been able to bring in the correct type of wolves and there was less competition for living space but they did not and now everyone has a problem. Wolves can survive and be a benefit to the area but since wolves have only one predator to cull them out they have to allow man to kill them when they wander off their refuge or cause damage. As for the video clip just about everything in it was some environmentalist's wet dream.

I have a friend whose family run cattle up around Island Park, ID and they loathe wolves. He's the one who told me about how a pack of wolves decimated a herd of Elk. The wolves weren't selective they killed everything that moved. They nibbled on some and not on others. They killed for the sport of killing.

We were in Southern California and we met this lady wearing one of those airbrushed shirts with wolves howling on it. She talked about how much she loved wolves, how noble they are. My buddy said, "Ma'am have you every seen what a wolf pack does to a heifer or a calf?" He schooled her on what wolves actually are, systematic killers, for better or for worse.

Man, I can't imagine being out there in the wilderness 150 years ago and hearing that howl!?! That just sends shivers down my spine. I'd rather take my chance with a Grizzly than a pack of wolves.

quote:

Originally posted by Ripley:
Thanks, guys, kinda what I thought not being familiar with the area. Talk of flowers, berries, birds and the course of rivers all laid on a bed of lilting music was a tell.

It's not a tell all. Stupid music makes anything sound dumb. But the video is based on a study of the reintroduction of wolves to the greater Yellowstone area. And the information contained in it comports with the study.

https://www.yellowstonepark.co...on-changes-ecosystem

The wolves or no-wolves arguments always seem to devolve into "animal-huggers" versus "we-want-to-kill-the-things-ourselves-that-wolves-kill-so-lets-kill-wolves" groups. But there are actual studies out there that tell you in unbiased terms what the REintroduction of wolves has meant.

As far as the argument, "this is why wolves exterminated" ignores the fact that "wolves were already there for a reason."

quote:

Originally posted by TMats:
Ecosystems are not only more complicated than you think,
They’re more complicated than you CAN think.

I think so too.
I don't know how correct of all this connect-the-dot theory is but it does sound interesting.

It is my first time seeing this video,thanks for sharing it.

Look at the elk numbers since the wolves were brought back up, severe decline.

It’s not about hunting in the park, people payed big $$ to hunt the edges. Wolves bring in a fraction of the $$ elk hunting brings in.

From 19k to 5.5k at the low point. They may be up to around 8k now.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
...the video is based on a study of the reintroduction of wolves to the greater Yellowstone area. And the information contained in it comports with the study.

https://www.yellowstonepark.co...on-changes-ecosystem

The wolves or no-wolves arguments always seem to devolve into "animal-huggers" versus "we-want-to-kill-the-things-ourselves-that-wolves-kill-so-lets-kill-wolves" groups. But there are actual studies out there that tell you in unbiased terms what the REintroduction of wolves has meant.

As far as the argument, "this is why wolves exterminated" ignores the fact that "wolves were already there for a reason."

Thanks for the link, it would seem to back the cascade effect of ecosystem changes. The short video was necessarily incomplete, talk of beaver extinction did not serve the message well as an example.

I will question the notion that various studies are absolutely unbiased. We have too many examples of "science" serving an agenda. University and governmental organizations have their own histories to overcome, particularly when it comes to environmental science.

It's a shame because what is happening in Yellowstone, at least based on short term info, is hugely interesting. Exactly what we are to learn remains to be seen IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
From 19k to 5.5k at the low point. They may be up to around 8k now.

19,000 in Yellowstone alone in 1994. I don't think there is any credible disagreement that that number represents a significant over population for Yellowstone. The only disagreement was from hunting guides that made money guiding hunts to kill elk that left the park.

quote:

Originally posted by ridewv:
In nature what preyed on wolves to keep their population from growing to the point they decimated certain species?

Indians

Isn't man about the only species that tries to gather its meat by what we would consider 'human" means? We pay to have some other 'predator" kill and dress the animals we eat. Nature is not kind, or caring in the least.

then again I'm so contrary back when I was a vegetarian many years ago I got into an argument with a fellow veggie when I said I thought bean sprouts might be a higher life form than us.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
Isn't man about the only species that tries to gather its meat by what we would consider 'human" means? We pay to have some other 'predator" kill and dress the animals we eat. Nature is not kind, or caring in the least.

You mean advanced society where we actively trade something of value for a good or service? Yes, I believe human are the only species on the planet to do this.

eagles have been repopulating all over the country. Not sure wolves had anything to do with it.

Thinking that a predator species is somehow noble is a fuzzy thinking eco-fantasy. Wolves are aggressive predators, who will kill any competitors, including foxes, coyotes and even mountain lions. They are also subject to the same boom and bust populations, usually due to their prey populations going through population swings, which they contribute to, along with weather. Even though the governments / eco-whackos don't want to admit it, they will spree kill, as has been referenced earlier in this thread. Wolves haven't preyed on humans in over a hundred years, for the same reason mountain lions didn't. We hunted them, and they learned / evolved to avoid us. Stop that hunting and you will get attacks on humans.

It seems like the majority of wolf enthusiasts live somewhere that wolves haven’t been reintroduced.

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:
It seems like the majority of wolf enthusiasts live somewhere that wolves haven’t been reintroduced.

And they have little to no stake in the outcome of higher predator populations. ‘I guess if the wolves kill the excess, hunters won’t be hunting’.

Eventually you bump up against the social carrying capacity, things happen, people take action.

It’s and endless discussion, most have their positions to advocate from. I hardly care about a ‘legal’ wolf season in the Upper Midwest. If it was reinstated, likely be weak anyway. Then it’s time to go ‘judge shopping’.

We are the apex predator.

We killed off our competition. In this case the wolf.

The wolves are another niche of the ecosystem.

Take out the wolves their the prey populations boom.

If the wolves population grows too large they need to move or they will die of starvation. Not enough prey.

Ranchers and hunters don't like the competition for food.

I have no skin in this game. For now.

If the wolf population grows so big it threatens the US food supply of meat they will all become extinct in the US again.

quote:

Originally posted by 280nosler:

You mean advanced society where we actively trade something of value for a good or service? Yes, I believe human are the only species on the planet to do this.

What about Bonobos.

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:
It seems like the majority of wolf enthusiasts live somewhere that wolves haven’t been reintroduced.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by sig2392:
We are the apex predator.

We killed off our competition. In this case the wolf.

The wolves are another niche of the ecosystem.

Take out the wolves their the prey populations boom.

If the wolves population grows too large they need to move or they will die of starvation. Not enough prey.

Ranchers and hunters don't like the competition for food.

I have no skin in this game. For now.

If the wolf population grows so big it threatens the US food supply of meat they will all become extinct in the US again.