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SIGforum's Berlin Correspondent |
I know we have a sizeable contingent of (former) US Marines here. Over on a military board I frequent, the leatherneck crowd is generally livid about the plans of the current Commandant for the Corps - particularly a friend of mine, a former USMC armor LTC. Which is understandable since the reform envisions to get rid of the armor units entirely as well as cutting down on aviation, artillery, and other heavy stuff. The official language is full of the requisite powerpoint buzzwords, but strikes me a bit as getting back to the roots - away from duplicating the capabilities of the US Army and securing the continued existence of the USMC (and competition for procurement dollars) by concentrating on the quick-deployment role with tighter integration with the USN, to the point where Marines not only once again fight from aboard Navy ships rather than being just passengers, but also engage enemy ships from ashore with missiles. This approach is specifically aimed at countering Chinese maritime ambitions in the Pacific. The criticism I've seen is that this is trying to refight WW II against Japan while forgetting the real lessons learned from it, like the use of tanks and artillery; that this is essentially remodelling the USMC as the British Royal Marine Commandos, but rather than setting them apart from the Army, it is duplicating a quick-reaction capability the latter already provides with its airborne troops; and this is probably the Navy making the Marines pay for the cost of its own procurement plans. Of course veterans everywhere tend to find it hard to accept change from "the good old times" when they served, too. Thoughts on this here? Some references:
https://www.marines.mil/Portal...019-07-17-090732-937
https://www.military.com/daily...P24J0pM5gK5q_Yv_w6tE
https://breakingdefense.com/20...-size-of-f-35-fleet/
https://www.military.com/daily...-be-based-japan.html
https://breakingdefense.com/20...-light-amphib-ships/This message has been edited. Last edited by: BansheeOne, | ||
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Member |
Wow. The MAW take a big hit & this is a serious message to China & their 9 dash line strategy. ______________________________________________ Life is short. It’s shorter with the wrong gun… | |||
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Member |
I really can't comment on the revision plans other than to make a comment on the above mention of China. I would say China better remember what happened when the sent 100,ooo soldiers up against just 12,000 marines.... When marines are completely surrounded it just makes deciding which way to attack easier. My Native American Name: "Runs with Scissors" | |||
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Go ahead punk, make my day |
Years of fighting land wars in Asia have turned them into a small Army. It's time they get back to their roots of expeditionary warfare, floats, and all that. | |||
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No double standards |
It might be that Marines are similar to the German Panzer units during WWII, more highly trained, mechanized, equipped, than traditional army. Montgomery's D-Day plan said Caen would be taken in one day. Because of Panzer units it took a month. And Montgomery's Operation Market Garden failed, Panzer units at Arnhem was a big reason. (Montgomery didn't learn his lesson the first time). Seems there might be value in keeping Marines as they are. "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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Ammoholic |
No comment on the plan. I just saw the title and thought, “Hmmm, I’ll bet Eleanor Roosevelt would have something to say about that.” | |||
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Experienced Slacker |
Medically disqualified from service myself. Now that is out of the way, I've known Marines that have served from Chosin to Fallujah. Support, infantry, and even special forces. Each generation has their own fond memories. Each also says the others have it easier or harder depending on the topic. Just as a taxpayer totally on the sidelines, I've wondered about why there always seems to be so much overlap in duties between the branches of service. Does it all come down to chasing a yearly budget? | |||
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The guy behind the guy |
I’m not a military man, but as a business man what I read makes sense. If there are other businesses/armed forces that do what you do but have more funding and larger numbers and your research indicates that there is an emerging market/threat that no one else is particularly suited to service/fight extremely well, then focusing on that emerging market makes sense to me. Tradition be damned, be prepared to serve the emerging market and you’ll succeed. Look at the funding for SF and SOCOM. The war on terror was a war tailor made for their area of expertise and they were pumped up when the need arose. I feel great knowing that our military is out there studying potential threats and making moves to ensure we have experts and specially designed forces to fight them. That’s smart business imo. It could ensure the Marines have a niche market and secure their future rather than be another “me too company” who just can’t hang and becomes duplicative and thus expendable. Sounds like the Marines have a smart leader to me. | |||
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Ammoholic |
Well, I’m sure that is part of it. I suspect that calling “your own guys” for air support or a ride to the fight is a little more comfortable than “hoping those other guys don’t think they have more important stuff to do than what you need.” | |||
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Age Quod Agis |
There is a bit of that, and the "support/transport/fires" from your own guys is real, as is the training that they put in. Marine pilots have been through Marine basic, and they are trained in close air support of Marine missions. They speak "Marine". Navy pilots or Air Force pilots do not necessarily have the same skill set because they train for different missions, such as carrier force protection, anti-ship missions, deep strike, air superiority, or force interdiction. Even if Air Force pilots are supporting ground operations, it's typically Army ground ops, and the Army and Marines operate under different doctrines, with different capabilities and objectives. Plus, it helps if your guys are your guys when there are other missions out there. I have a friend who is a SEAL, former active duty, now reservist, and served in Iraq and Afghanistan. He had a mission where they were to be delivered to target on V-22 Ospreys (Navy assets) with fire support from AH-64 Apache helicopters (Army assets). After they were airborne, the Army got another mission, re-allocated the Apaches and the V-22s went in without fire support. It got ugly. It's much less likely that the fire support element would have been pulled from the mission if it was a Navy or Marine Corps asset, and coordination would likely have been better. All that said, it's shit like this that worries me:
That sentence is pure mil-bur bullshit and means absolutely nothing in the real world. I hope the Commandant has a fucking plan, and isn't just jerking the budget $ teat. I hope that they know the threat that they face, and are configured properly for it. The USMC doesn't need to mirror or duplicate the Army, but it does need the doctrine and equipment to perform it's assigned mission. Spec the mission, then define the needed capabilities. I hope they don't screw this up, or they will get a lot of Marines killed when the hammer drops, all in the name of "lean" and 'budget". "I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation." Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II. | |||
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Wandering, but not lost...I think |
My son just commissioned in the USMC last month, so this thread caught my attention. From a defined mission capability standpoint, the reduction in heavy equipment and enduring land-based mission-oriented units makes sense...on paper. But history has taught us that what makes sense on papers drafted at HHQ by careerists far removed from the front line is rarely cleanly executed on the battlefield. The duplication of missions and buildup of associated equipment is largely due to mistrust between the services that the other service charged with mission "X" will be there when the call comes in. The prime example I can think of is the air missions like CAS and CSAR. Give all the airplanes to the Air Force and helos to the Army...surely they'll remember the Marines on the ground when prioritizing missions, right? Nope...never have. So give the Navy some planes and helos to cover their Marine buddies...they'll remember to cover down, right? Nope..."We need the planes for fleet defense (and to get in on the ground attack mission so the AF guys don't have all the fun), and the helos will be on standby to rescue downed pilots." History will only repeat itself...I just hope it doesn't cost too many Jarhead lives in the process. | |||
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semi-reformed sailor |
There is a reason that the Marines began supporting themselves when it comes to armor and aviation and their own artillery..etc....most likely learned with the blood of marines in the process.... Maybe the Commandant doesn’t know it or remember why they began these fields...but in the future, it will be a huge mistake to have removed them. Now, if the idea were to maybe reduce the size of the supporting “jobs” ie artillery,aviation,armor, then that might be good for the Corps, but I think it’s a big mistake. "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
The marines have long fucked the goat when it comes to mission shifts, particularly those who keep trying to claim "going back to our roots" type shifts. They tried it with MARSOC, and their resistance from joining JSOC. We saw how that worked out. | |||
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No double standards |
Seems to me there might be two business aspects to consider. It is quite common for competing firms to merge, doing so can be more efficient as they can eliminate redundant overhead. On the other hand, if a business has a defacto monopoly, it is easy to become lazy, less competent and less able to serve the needs of your "customers". "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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No double standards |
I think that's an important point. "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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Don't Panic |
I think the real problem is that we haven't had enough ground forces to both fight/occupy hot zones and garrison/deter other places, so the Marines got sucked into the vacuum. What they've been doing recently does not seem unique to their capabilities. I think maybe this will get the Marines out of the ground war game, and keep them freed up for crisis response vs being bogged down in the occupation/peacekeeper thing. Personally, I'd like to see the airborne folks kept back as well. | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
Some of this "duplication" though, is only on paper. Yes, Marine air and Army air have similar "duplication". But, there are only so many air ships to go around. I remember Operation Red Wings (while a Navy operation) lost air support because they were tasked with Army Apaches who were called away on another mission. This loss of air support led to lost lives. Marine Air has always been tasked with covering Marine assets first. That is the thing I think about other than the "on paper" aspect. | |||
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Member |
Yes, the whole purpose and push for developing the Marine air wings was, and is close air support for the grunts on the ground. As mentioned they may not always be able to count on other services for that support as well as the armor and artillery. Marine aviators train specifically for that purpose and the other elements are important for self support as well . Huge mistake cutting them and I wonder what his motivation for this stems from. It's idiotic and sounds like typical stuff generated by staff who never had experience or forgot it. | |||
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Member |
You may want to read: For Country and Corps The Life Of General Oliver P Smith (Naval Institute Press) With out the brilliant planning and command of Gen Oliver P Smith it could have been an epic disaster. | |||
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No double standards |
Excellent points. What's on paper is not always the same as what wins battles. "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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