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Picture of LimaCharlie
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I was in the Navy attached to an Air Force base. I made E-5 when I was still nineteen years old.

An Air Force guy and I were up as the senior enlisted in the group. The Air Force officer asked the Air Force guy his date of rank. He was senior because he made E-5 when I was in the second grade of grade school.


U.S. Army, Retired
 
Posts: 3725 | Location: Northwest Oregon | Registered: June 12, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Most (not all)the times I've seen Os compare date of rank, asshattery has been in progress.
 
Posts: 4845 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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As already discussed there are many factors that affect who’s in charge of a military operation. If the chain of command is clearly stated by whatever orders are issued by higher authority, then it’s simple. But that may not always be the case. In the movie Zulu (and perhaps in real life) the command of the garrison at Rorke’s Drift was assumed by an engineer officer based on his date of rank over the infantry officer who was also present. Other times that might not be permitted. I am more than a little vague about the applicable rules, but I don’t believe, for example, that if it had been a modern US Army engagement that a major who was a physician would be authorized to assume command of an infantry company over its captain CO.

I also recall that at one time the US Navy had “right and left sleeve” enlisted ratings and one type (I forget which) was authorized to assume command of a vessel if required, even if he was technically outranked by a rating of the opposite type.

There are nevertheless historical examples of officers’ having asserted the authority of their rank to take charge of situations for which lower ranking officers were more qualified.

But when I attended language school, class leaders were appointed purely on the basis of rank; there were two E-6s in my class and because the Navy guy had a senior date of rank over me he got the job. And keep in mind that if a member of the armed forces has the authority to assume a position in the chain of command when nothing else governs, he is generally required to do so. He can’t just say, “Oh, I’d rather not; lieutenant, you take charge,” and all else being equal the date of rank or other criteria is the deciding factor. If he shirked that duty he could be held accountable.




6.4/93.6

“ Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 48020 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
Most (not all)the times I've seen Os compare date of rank, asshattery has been in progress.


Happened all the time with NCO's for details, detachments, or missions. We weren't potatoes, so we figured out who was senior, put them in charge and then drove on. Never a big deal.
 
Posts: 848 | Location: STL | Registered: January 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by 1gkek:
[W]e figured out who was senior, put them in charge and then drove on.


The armed forces couldn’t function at all, much less effectively, without knowing who was in charge at all times, and without clear rules knowing who was in charge would be impossible. Sometimes in the chaos of combat or other emergency and the person who should be in charge becomes ineffective or it’s simply not clear, then someone takes it upon himself—authorized or not—to issue orders. That is not common, however, and things get sorted out correctly when it becomes possible.




6.4/93.6

“ Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 48020 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Non-Miscreant
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And so far, no mention of HMFIC.


Unhappy ammo seeker
 
Posts: 18394 | Location: Kentucky, USA | Registered: February 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oh stewardess,
I speak jive.
Picture of 46and2
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I was a Corporal in the early 90s, finished my 4yrs as an E5. Weren't many Corporals around then, the overwhelming majority of E-4s were Specialists.
 
Posts: 25613 | Registered: March 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:
Weren't many Corporals around then, the overwhelming majority of E-4s were Specialists.


What was your MOS?

The 97B counterintelligence agent was one MOS that had corporals, but there weren’t many even in that field during the Vietnam War due to the fact that most graduates of the CI course were promoted to at least sergeant (E-5) upon graduation. At the time (still?) there was a legal difference between corporal and Specialist Four in that a corporal was a noncommissioned officer (NCO) and Specialists* weren’t. That increased the UCMJ penalties for things like refusing to obey their orders or assaulting them.

* At one time there were Specialist ranks up to E-9, at least in theory, with many actual SP5s and a few SP6s. I was an SP5 when I went through the CI course and was promoted to Staff Sergeant (E-6) when I graduated.




6.4/93.6

“ Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 48020 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
At the time (still?) there was a legal difference between corporal and Specialist Four in that a corporal was a noncommissioned officer (NCO) and Specialists* weren’t.


Similarly, in the WW2 US Army there also used to be parallel Technician ranks, which afforded that person the pay of a Corporal/Sergeant/Staff Sergeant, but not the authority. In matters of command, they ranked below Corporal and were equivalent to Privates.

These ranks were used for those with advanced technical skills and experience (like mechanics, medical personnel, and radio operators), to grant them higher pay without clogging up the "real" NCO ranks unnecessarily.

 
Posts: 33568 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
KANE CHARLEY 6
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The real can 'o worms is a Combined Command. I once had such, officers from 7 NATO countries all three services ranks from ( our) O3 to O5. The biggest rank fight I ever handled was when the Greek LTC parked his car in the space from which the Belgian Maj. had just cleared 3 feet of snow.


OLDUtahskibum
 
Posts: 203 | Location: Sandy,UT (Greatest snow on earth) | Registered: May 13, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oh stewardess,
I speak jive.
Picture of 46and2
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:
Weren't many Corporals around then, the overwhelming majority of E-4s were Specialists.


What was your MOS?.

19k, M1 tanks.

I never inteneded to serve more than one term anyway, and going to war seemed so unlikely at the time of my enlistment in '89 (boy was I ever wrong), that I never gave much thought to what job I chose beyond what seemed sort of interesting and fun at the time (shakes head at self), so I decided against the OCS route and entered as a PFC with some age, education, and smarts advantages over most of my peers.

Was fast tracked through pretty much everything, PLDC, driver to gunner to tank commander, etc.

Being in an armor unit was an absurd job for me. Too easy to excel. I choose poorly. My fault entirely.

But I made the most of it, did very well, and shot some big guns a lot. The kid in me loved those parts...
 
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Picture of SeaCliff
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In the Navy of same pay grade and possible above a Line Officer resumes command over an equal Staff Officer.
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: San Diego | Registered: October 24, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:
19k, M1 tanks.


Interesting. Other than CI, I never knew which specialties had corporals. Of course, that changed over time as well.




6.4/93.6

“ Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 48020 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
I see everyone left out "Corporal Captain", it was a U.S. Army brevet rank during the Korean conflict...


MASH..?


____________________________
"Fear is a Reaction - Courage is a Decision.” - Winston Spencer Churchill
NRA Life Member - Adorable Deplorable Garbage
 
Posts: 954 | Location: SE-PA | Registered: August 09, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I see everyone left out "Corporal Captain", it was a U.S. Army brevet rank during the Korean conflict...


No, don't like it one bit.
One against, 1 no.
 
Posts: 1112 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: August 16, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A Grateful American
Picture of sigmonkey
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@ Cassandra and PeteF Big Grin




"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב!
 
Posts: 44763 | Location: Box 1663 Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: December 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Now, if you REALLY want to get confused, there exist in the Guard and Reserve "Military Technicians", which are uniform-wearing civilians in Title 32 status, day-to-day, in military status during Unit Training Assemblies, on annual field training, or when activated by the State into Title 32 active duty status, or by the Federal Government into Title 10 active duty status. Technicians are full-time Guard personnel.

For example, I was NYANG Master Sergeant part time, but a GS-11 Federal employee during the week. By US Code, I was required to wear the uniform when performing in Technician status.

A GS-11 could hold a military rank from senior enlisted to middle-rank officers.

Generally speaking, one's job was usually based upon one;s military rank, but not always.

Tim


"Dead Midgets Handled With No Questions Asked"
 
Posts: 704 | Registered: March 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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I have a buddy who does IT for the Air National Guard, as a civilian during the week and as an E7 during drill. It's a great gig.
 
Posts: 33568 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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I always enjoyed being in units / organizations where these discussions never happened.

We had a saying "no rank in the cockpit" and it was very true and only if there was a really hard call did someone 'of authority' ever step in - but typically the correct things were being done, so that rarely needed to happen.

The only time rank / seniority mattered were for the detachment / deployment fly-on/fly-off (instead of riding the boat back). Even a guest TV personality couldn't over-ride that, we made him launch and pretend he was flying off, before trapping the plane and pulling him out for a RIO flying off from a 6+ month deployment.
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of mikeyspizza
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OP's Question: "If you are in a team or on a mission with people from different branches of the military, how is the chain of command established?"

Another correct answer: It will be explained before you deploy.
 
Posts: 4094 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: August 16, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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