Update:
Found some good deals at the local grocery store so I decided to see how cheap I can do this on the fly.

My mix wound up being (% of calories):

76% lean protein (pork/chicken necks for bone)
10% vegetable (collards, sweet potato, carrots)
12% organs (beef liver)
2% sardines

At this rate I’m at about 9$ a day feeding the two dogs. That’s almost double what dry food costs but not too crazy overall. Both the daily figures are inflated for the puppy putting away 1300 calories a day compared to Jellys 725. Once her eating levels off the raw diet would see a greater dollar amount of savings. Probably getting me closer to 6.50 a day. And all this at grocery store prices. I’m sure I can trim another 20% off getting trimming at a local butcher, gonna also talk to the processor my dad used for 30 years.

The caloric breakdown was easy, now I wanna explore the fat, protein, carbs macros a bit and make sure those are close to what I want. I’d wager the sugar was too high with both the sweet potato and carrots for example.

I’ll leave yall with an anecdotal situation applicable to all this. ARman, I 100% respect your passion for this, so take this with a grain of salt. I once had a cross fitter tell me my chicken and broccoli dinner wasn’t healthy because I steamed the broccoli and it lost nutritional value. As if my broccoli somehow turned into a fucking snickers when I cooked it. So while I may not be exactly where I need to be on the first try, it’s still closer to broccoli than a snickers.

My reason for doing this is not some deep philosophical reason. It’s just observations…my dogs can switch FLAVORS of kibble, not brands but flavors, and shit through a screen door for two days. However, they can eat a week old rabbit that’s rotting and have no ill effects, same with deer carcasses they drag outta the woods we thought we dropped off far enough away from the house. The fact that rotten deteriorating meat has less effect of their GI tract means some damn harsh chemicals are in that kibble. I think those companies are better at advertising than research and nutrition. My dogs aren’t my kids. But my dogs are MY dogs and I love em to death. I’d feed both of em to my kids to survive one day longer. But I’d kill a dozen people if they meant harm on my dogs. So I’m gonna give it a go for them. Jelly and Bella damn sure doesn’t mind! They seem content after meal one.






OP:
Fed them Viktor for a while, now Purina pro plan. I’m thinking I’d like to try a raw diet, I know it’s expensive, but the commissary has past date meats for really cheap frozen. I could probably grab a couple roasts a week, some chicken, etc.

I’m thinking I’ll boil the chicken (sans bones), but the rest, is raw better?

Mix in some rice, sweet potato, green beans, and olive oil and I should be able to hit all the macros.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OttoSig,

Definitely not an expert on a raw diets for dogs, but raw is the only way a dog should get a bone of any kind.

We trained our GSD with a breeder and trainer of protection dogs. They would give their dogs whole chicken from time-to-time, feathers and all. That’s the way a wild canine would eat an avian species, and they felt like the feathers were good for the digestive tract too.

Always what I heard too, raw chicken bones are okay. However I’ve read that foodborne illnesses for foul are the same threat in dogs as humans so I’m not sure if raw chicken is advised.

I feed raw, and home-cooked diet. It's mostly a raw diet, with home-cooked to even and balance it out,using cook veggies, and grains and seeds with herbs and spices to get where we need to be.

All raw bones are safe. My pups get chicken paws, legs and wings raw almost every day.

I grind my own when I get enough of everything, looking for sales. I ended up buy a chest freezer for this and really need a bigger one.

I mostly use products from Midwest Legacy Beef. The Midwest Legacy Beef BLT + bone is most used. They just introduced a complete and balanced raw product.

I have a collaboration with them and if you use the link and promo code you can get a 5% discount on your order.


A word of Caution. Don't just give raw hamburger and chicken and cook some chicken and rice and think that is is. It's not. There is a lot that goes into it, and it's hard to start, but it's not that hard. Once you get going, it's easier, and doesn't take that much time, and you learn to come up with deals so it's not that much more expensive. As a matter of fact, I save money over the super premium kibble I was using, plus no Veterinarian, except for their shots and check-ups once a year.

My babies have beautiful eyes, coats. Healthy, white teeth. No bad smells. Small poops that don't stink. Tons of energy.

I'll give you a link to Midwest Legacy Beef and to a YouTube channel that really helped me if you want.

I'm no expert, but I have been a raw feeder for 4.5 years and I can tell you it's all worth it!


P.S. I'm will to help as much as I can, with ideas and recipes for home-cooked diet, I have been on a journey to get dogs/people away from kibble and other highly processed foods.

ARman

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:

I’m thinking I’ll boil the chicken (sans bones), but the rest, is raw better?

Mix in some rice, sweet potato, green beans, and olive oil and I should be able to hit all the macros.

That's not even coming close to a balanced diet.

So we are looking at 60 to 70% muscle meat,5% liver, 2.5% spleen, 2.5 % kidney 2% heart, 10% bones. 10% green tripe. That is close to balanced.

Then I add a home-cooked diet that is a third of their food.

The base recipe is

1 large sweet potato chopped
1-3 beets chopped
3 to 4 large carrots chopped
3 stocks of celery chopped
1 bunch of parsley chopped
1 bunch of Kale chopped
1 bunch of spinach chopped
1 bunch of mustard greens chopped
1 package of fresh green beans chopped
Into the 8 quart instant pot with 4 cups of water or bone broth Cook for 5 minutes

After, take stick blinder break down into puree.

1 1.25lbs chicken hearts and gizzard
1 1.25lbs chicken liver
1lbs ground lean ground beef
1lbs ground pork
1lbs ground chicken or turkey

2 tablespoons of kelp power
2 tablespoons cinnamon
2 tablespoons turmeric
2 tablespoons of ginger
2 tablespoons ground black pepper
1 clove garlic minced fine ( YES IT IS SAFE FOR DOGS )

3/4 cup of quinoa
3/4 cup of brown rice
3/4 cup ground flaxseed
4/5 cup oats

Add to instant pot cook on high 8 minutes

Then add one can mackerel, one can salmon, 3 to 4 eggs shell and all crack eggs crush shells and mix well.

Put into freezer bags, thaw and use.

With my two 50lbs australian shepherds this makes enough for a month.

If it was their only meals it would be a week or a little more.


Side note, I'm making this right now, after a 7 day 76 hours work week. It's mostly waiting on the instant pot, and there is the prep of chopping up the veggies.

ARman

Why?

Reputable dog food manufactures have spent millions to develop nutritional dog food recipes over many decades to ensure that their diets meet small animal guidelines and ensuring the proper delivery of necessary nutrients to your dog. I don’t know about you but I don’t have that knowledge or experience and even if I did I couldn’t do that in my kitchen nor would i want to experiment on my dogs.

Stick with the big brands who have veterinary nutritionists on board who have done the research already. Don’t study label ingredients, most of that is marketing. The ingredients are just a nutrient delivery system. Study the nutrients. Do pay particular attention to avoid excessive calcium and phosphorus levels. You’ll be surprised by how many manufacturers blow through those numbers (e.g., Victor).

All of these companies have options that stay within small animal veterinary guidelines though Science Diet, IMO, is the most consistent within their line, top to bottom.

Hills Science Diet
Purina
Royal Canine
Farmina

quote:

Originally posted by x0225095:
Why?

Reputable dog food manufactures have spent millions to develop nutritional dog food recipes over many decades to ensure that their diets meet small animal guidelines and ensuring the proper delivery of necessary nutrients to your dog. I don’t know about you but I don’t have that knowledge or experience and even if I did I couldn’t do that in my kitchen nor would i want to experiment on my dogs.

Stick with the big brands who have veterinary nutritionists on board who have done the research already. Don’t study label ingredients, most of that is marketing. The ingredients are just a nutrient delivery system. Study the nutrients. Do pay particular attention to avoid excessive calcium and phosphorus levels. You’ll be surprised by how many manufacturers blow through those numbers (e.g., Victor).

All of these companies have options that stay within small animal veterinary guidelines though Science Diet, IMO, is the most consistent within their line, top to bottom.

Hills Science Diet
Purina
Royal Canine
Farmina

Because they are junk, full of dead animals, euthanasia drugs, HCAs, PAHs and all kinds of chemical reactions because of high heat cooking.

Out of the four listed, only one would I use, Farmina. The rest is full if corn, Peas and lentils, which in small quantities are fine, but are full of carbs.

The nutrients are synthetic not natural and are not easily used as natural. To make it palatable they add brewers yeast and oils to it.

I prefer to use, fresh, wholesome ingredients that I have somewhat of a clue where it came from.

Commercial dog food = McDonald's and Doritos.

ARman

I think it depends on the breed. My beagle is fed Acana kibbles by Champion Petfoods which has almost no carbs. I stopped using the Orijen fish based food because my dog had salmon breath. Acana Appalachian Ranch is 70% Protein and no grains. My wife added sweet potatoe, boiled chicken, chopped carrots & parsley to the kibbles with the boiled chicken broth. Walmart grocery has chicken breasts for $2.50/lb.

We feed our dogs ground beef & lamb with a little beef liver.
I buy primal cuts & grind at home.

Why, the top blends can be detrimental to some dogs, we chased dog allergy, infection, scratching, raw skin sores, bad coat.

Vets all gave medications, Science Diet vet level foods, nothing fixed the problem. She was on Apoquel and steroid shots in order to bring it down a notch it never cured the problem just relieved the results of the problem for a short time, and a ton of money.

With the help of SF and Jeff Y we found a list of neutral based dog foods, Non GMO, Grain Free high protein, and upon switching, everything changed, no more shots or pills, her coat improved as did the skin. It's a sensitive digestion meal and was worth every penny.

So many illness's can be based on the food source, a raw diet would have been next had this not worked.

Link I and Love and You...

Edit, went back and found the article that listed several of the foods that can help with skin based, intestinal issues with dogs.

https://www.pawster.com/best-yeast-free-dog-food/

quote:

Originally posted by ARman:

quote:

Originally posted by x0225095:
Why?

Reputable dog food manufactures have spent millions to develop nutritional dog food recipes over many decades to ensure that their diets meet small animal guidelines and ensuring the proper delivery of necessary nutrients to your dog. I don’t know about you but I don’t have that knowledge or experience and even if I did I couldn’t do that in my kitchen nor would i want to experiment on my dogs.

Stick with the big brands who have veterinary nutritionists on board who have done the research already. Don’t study label ingredients, most of that is marketing. The ingredients are just a nutrient delivery system. Study the nutrients. Do pay particular attention to avoid excessive calcium and phosphorus levels. You’ll be surprised by how many manufacturers blow through those numbers (e.g., Victor).

All of these companies have options that stay within small animal veterinary guidelines though Science Diet, IMO, is the most consistent within their line, top to bottom.

Hills Science Diet
Purina
Royal Canine
Farmina

Because they are junk, full of dead animals, euthanasia drugs, HCAs, PAHs and all kinds of chemical reactions because of high heat cooking.

Out of the four listed, only one would I use, Farmina. The rest is full if corn, Peas and lentils, which in small quantities are fine, but are full of carbs.

The nutrients are synthetic not natural and are not easily used as natural. To make it palatable they add brewers yeast and oils to it.

I prefer to use, fresh, wholesome ingredients that I have somewhat of a clue where it came from.

Commercial dog food = McDonald's and Doritos.

ARman

Bad advice = Good luck and best wishes.

x0225095:same, back at ya.

The big brands spend millions on advertising, not what is the best. They are looking for the cheapest junk to fill that bag. Euthanized and dead animals, sick animals. It's 100% legal and they do it. Corn, and Legumes in large quantities.

They meet the AAFCO by adding synthetic vitamins and minerals.

They make it Is palatable by adding oils and brewers yeast. Without them, most dogs won't eat the kibble.

I have always fed kibble until these two. High end, and Veterinarian diets that were prescription and cost even more. The previous 5 aussies died before the 12 birthday, most earlier. Always at the Veterinarian, always sick. One problem after another. With one being diabetic, which killed her.

Now, I have two very healthy and active aussies that look great, no bad smells, teeth are white, perfect Veterinarian checkups ( blood work done every year).

I make sure that they ARE getting a balanced diet, with fresh wholesome meat, veggies, fruits and yes even seeds and grains.

The information is out there for raw feeding. There is bad, good, and great information. You have to Research before you begin.

I'm no expert, but I follow a couple and I'll be glad to point out resources.

ARman

We have had many dogs over the last 40 years. We used to go with the top listed kibble, or what that was at the time.
After years of having dogs develop cancer and other unusual health problems we saw the light. I started making our own food with meat, veggies, and some fruit. Things got much better as far as the dogs health.
We now have two med. sized dogs that are very active.Both rescued from roaming wild together.
One looks like a Jack Russel Terrier and the other looks like a small Rottweiler.

I now feed them beef Liver and beef Kidney daily. They get a big meal of that once a day. In the morning I give them sweet potato and some cheese if I have some grated. They also get a bowl of Costco kibble that they can snack on through out the day. They end up eating 2 cups of the kibble a day (for both dogs).
They also always get table scraps.
They are doing great.

I find the liver and kidneys frozen at Wild Fork for about $2.00 per pound.

I always remembered that all the dogs that my family had when I grew up ate table scraps. No Cancer or other off the wall sicknesses.
If the food we humans eat is garbage I can only imagine what they make Dog kibble out of despite what the package label and there ad agency says.

We started feeding raw when we adopted our GSD from the breeder after he ended up back there as an adult. Having had almost everyone of my dogs except one die of cancer we wanted to try something different, the breeder did a mix of raw and kibble and pointed us in our first direction towards raw. We made our own raw which was a combination of chicken, beef and vegetables and egg. If you are feeding whole chicken parts be aware of the amount of bone you give them as the calcium can cause some constipation. After awhile we were able to find a local company that does raw meals in 1 and 5lb chubs. We get a discount through the one of the PD’s my wife works with. Our trainer uses whatever is on sale including fish and octopus.

Our dogs are far healthier, sheds less than any GSD we have ever had and no allergies or stomach issues. I will never go back to kibble.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Valpo Fz,

personally I think cancer in dogs has a lot to do with landscape maintenance chemicals. Weedkiller, fertilizer, pesticides, ect. Not dog food. Ymmv

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
personally I think cancer in dogs has a lot to do with landscape maintenance chemicals. Weedkiller, fertilizer, pesticides, ect. Not dog food. Ymmv

I use no lawn maintenance products in the backyard where the dogs are. I would like to find a organic alternative but I haven’t found one I trust yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Valpo Fz:

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
personally I think cancer in dogs has a lot to do with landscape maintenance chemicals. Weedkiller, fertilizer, pesticides, ect. Not dog food. Ymmv

I use no lawn maintenance products in the backyard where the dogs are. I would like to find a organic alternative but I haven’t found one I trust yet.

Wondercide for lawn Diatomaceous earth food grade.

Don't use them at the same time. Spray the area with Wondercide as directed after a few days, when you are going to have 36 to 48 hours of no rain dust everything with the Diatomaceous earth (food grade) especially in the shaded areas, also up into bushes and shrubbery.

Do this a couple of times and it works well. Just around here been getting to much rain.

ARman

quote:

I use no lawn maintenance products in the backyard where the dogs are. I would like to find a organic alternative but I haven’t found one I trust yet.

Any place you take or walk your dog will expose them to harmful chemicals unfortunately. Parks, public places, retail locations, school grounds, hospital campus', through neighborhoods just to name a few.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
personally I think cancer in dogs has a lot to do with landscape maintenance chemicals. Weedkiller, fertilizer, pesticides, ect. Not dog food. Ymmv

Some people use the water from the garden hose which may be bad from the chemicals in some hoses.

Also kibble is heated at very high temperatures destroying the food value.

I believe ARman has posted about this before and seems very thorough in his explanations and research.

I would trust this information. Myself, I’m too lazy, so I will buy a raw diet that’s been premade. I do the freeze dry Stella and chewy and mix it with high end kibble. I’ll also buy chicken backs and beef bones and make a broth, drizzle that over the food. They get treats all the time, but I don’t pretend that it supplements appropriately- you need to make sure you’ve got certain elements in there (such as taurine for cats), and it has to be an appropriately balanced amount -you can’t just give them chicken and beef and cross your fingers with some veggies and scraps.
As another poster mentioned, these big companies have done a tremendous amount of research on dog diets and yes, they want to make the profit, but they do have decades of studies that back them up. I’ve had dogs live for 15y on old Roy, and I don’t even know if you can find that stuff anymore. All that said, take a look at your ingredient list. It had better start off with beef/chicken/fish, some sort of protein, otherwise you are getting a lot of filler and while canines are definitely omnivores, they do need more protein than veggies.
I always cringe when I see a vegetarian trying to force a dog to be vegetarian.