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Weird issue with new Costco tires: Who is right, Costco or me? Login/Join 
goodheart
Picture of sjtill
posted
I went to have tires on the Odyssey rotated and balanced (vibration at 60 mph). I was told the rear tires had "ozone cracking" and should be replaced-at least, they would not rotate them.
The tires are in, and I asked the tire guy if they would put the new tires on the front, and rotate the front tires (60% tread) to the rear. My thinking:
1. 80% of braking is on front tires
2. Tread wear in FWD vehicle is much higher on front
Therefore safest to have better tires on front.
Costco guy (clearly based on what they are told): it's safest to have best tires on rear if you lose control of car.
Me: This is a FWD car. It understeered. If you lose control, you gradually add gas, get the tire back in line; AND there is vehicle stability control, which greatly decreases the chance of the rear breaking away (especially since it's never powered).

My plan (since I've already paid for the tires) is to have Costco mount the tires then go somewhere else to have rotation done and balance the front tires as they're. moved to the rear.

So who is right? If I'm wrong and my SF friends can convince me, I'll be happy. If I'm right, I'll be happy.

OK, red face here:
New tires always go on the rear


_________________________
“ What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.”— Lord Melbourne
 
Posts: 18511 | Location: One hop from Paradise | Registered: July 27, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
paradox in a box
Picture of frayedends
posted Hide Post
I agree with putting best on front. No idea why you would need to balance them again if balanced at Costco. Balancing is done off the vehicle.




These go to eleven.
 
Posts: 12605 | Location: Westminster, MA | Registered: November 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
goodheart
Picture of sjtill
posted Hide Post
See my last link: it's because Costco would get sued if anything happened.

quote:
New Tires On Front Or Back?
Unfortunately, tires wear faster on either the front or rear axle usually and not evenly on both the front and rear tires. Front wheel drive cars and trucks tend to wear the front tires faster. Rear wheel drive vehicles tend to wear the rear tires faster.

Tire professionals, myself included, recommend replacing tires in pairs if not replacing all the tires. Many people will assume that the new pair of tires should be mounted on the front axle. After all, these tires are responsible for steering.

New Tires On The Front Or Back

When mounting a new pair of tires, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle. This is because increased traction on the rear axle reduces the chance of oversteer, which is more difficult to recover from when losing traction.

Tire Moving Water
Tires Must Move Water Out From Underneath The Contact Patch Through The Tread Grooves
A study showed that approximately 75% of consumers believe when purchasing just two tires, they should be placed on the front of the vehicle. Contrary to instinct, this is a very dangerous practice.

If front tires lose grip, they tend to go where they’re pointed and where the driver intends to steer them. But rear tires can lose grip in corners if they’re worn, especially in wet conditions. That’s why rear tires need to have the best traction possible to ensure their surface grip.

Let’s take a close look.

Why Do New Tires Go On The Rear?

Tires have an important role in wet weather conditions, providing traction for your car or truck. And they provide the most wet-weather traction and resistance to hydroplaning when they are new and have full tread depth. When we place the newer, better tires on the rear of the vehicle, we’re maximizing the traction and control available at the rear wheels, and therefore keep the rear of the car as planted and stable as possible.

For the average driver, a loss of control at the rear axle is very hard to manage. A loss of traction at the rear of the car often results in a spin and, possibly, an off-road adventure that could lead to an accident. On the other hand, a loss of control at the front axle doesn’t require the driver’s intervention as urgently, and it’s usually much easier to manage. The vehicle will tend to simply slide forward in a straight line.

tire tread depth chart
Tire Tread Depth Chart
Oversteer Vs Understeer

Oversteering and understeering are terms used to describe a loss of traction on the front or rear axles. A simple definition is understeering takes place when the car turns less than what the driver intended while oversteering happens when the car turns more than what the driver intended.

Both oversteer and understeer take place as a result of the difference in slip angle between the front and rear wheels. A slip angle is an angle difference between the direction of the car heading and the direction of the wheel heading.

In an understeer situation, the driver has often less control of the steering wheel, and the front wheels plow straight even if the steering is turned. In an oversteering situation, the car is too sensitive to the steering wheel and it starts to lose control in the backside, a phenomenon called fishtailing. In other words, if the car loses control of the front tires, it’s understeer, and if it loses control of the rear tires it’s oversteer.

In the case of oversteer, the driver’s ability to control the car is dramatically reduced. This is why oversteering is usually present in many single-vehicle loss-of-control accidents and rollovers. This is why tires that are new, and therefore have a better tread, should be always placed on the back of the vehicle.

Where Do New Tires Go On FWD, RWD, AWD, 4×4, & Trucks

The bottom line is that it doesn’t matter which axle is driving your vehicle forward. New tires should always go on the rear axle. This again is advice that will sound incorrect to some that aren’t tire experts. Even seasoned car enthusiasts are caught off guard by this bit of information.

The reason that this fact is confusing is that drivers are thinking more about traction loss under acceleration or hard cornering on otherwise dry and grippy road surfaces.

This isn’t the scenario that most cars and trucks struggle to maintain traction or lead to the most accidents in wet weather conditions.

Loss of grip due to hydroplaning tires or wet roads can be affected by the axle or axles that are driven. But ultimately, if you lose traction on the back end of your car or truck it will be more difficult to control and recover.

If you can’t replace all four tires, move the partially worn tires to the front axle and the two tires you purchased on the rear.

Can I Put New Tires On The Front Anyway?

While you can obviously move your tires yourself once you get home, you will likely struggle to find any reputable tire shop you can talk into installing tires on the front axle of your car or truck.

We don’t recommend you swap the tires with the most tread depth to the front. Tire manufacturers have confirmed through testing that mounting worn tires on the front and the two tires that are new on the rear is the safest choice.

Aside from the fact that it has been proven that vehicles with better traction on the rear are more stable, there have been lawsuits that have found tire shops negligent due to having installed replacement tires on the front instead of the rear.

New Tires On Rear Lawsuit

When installing new tires, workers are trained to always install the new tires in the rear, no matter what the clients are suggesting. Not doing so can harm the client and therefore the company would be liable for damages.

One such example is from a lawsuit filed in May 2017, which alleges that the Walmart Tire & Lube Center acted negligently by installing two new tires on the front axle of a family vehicle. This allegedly led to a tread imbalance, which might have caused the car to spin out of control and crash into a tree. This accident in Massachusetts happened in the morning, on a day when the road was covered in ice. The driver of the car was pronounced dead at the scene, and the passenger was in a coma for weeks and will require a caretaker for the rest of his life.

This is just one example of lawsuits involving the negligence of companies that did not follow industry standards and installed new tires on the front axle, which resulted in accidents and even deaths.

Final Thoughts

No matter what type of vehicle or axle(s) of the vehicle drives it forward, when buying a new pair of tires, you should always mount them on the rear. This will ensure you get the maximum grip on the rear axle so you reduce run the risk of oversteering in heavy rain or standing water.

While most people will be surprised by this advice, the tire industry is more educated on this point than those who disagree.

Bottom line: If you buy just two tires, mount those tires on the rear.

Good luck and happy motoring.


_________________________
“ What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.”— Lord Melbourne
 
Posts: 18511 | Location: One hop from Paradise | Registered: July 27, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alienator
Picture of SIG4EVA
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Its not just Costco, any tire shop is going to do the same.


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Posts: 7184 | Location: NC | Registered: March 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Back, and
to the left
Picture of 83v45magna
posted Hide Post
You are right.

I remember briefly running into this at our Costco and getting the same bullshit re: ft vs rr.

I remember pretty quickly deciding that this was their own (Costco's) line of BS. I informed him that this was a basic requirement for us and that we would have to agree to disagree. That I would be following a best tires up front rule for good was a given. I dealt with it by saying we were coming up on a new set and that if he wouldn't rotate the best to the front that he should balance them. I would rotate them when I got home and, in that event, we wouldn't be buying tires from Costco anymore. That we heard great things about Discount Tire.

Guess what? They rotated them. We have bought two sets since and have never had to have this discussion again.
 
Posts: 7452 | Location: Dallas | Registered: August 04, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Vote the
BASTIDS OUT!
Picture of yanici
posted Hide Post
This is interesting. So, why bother rotating tires to keep tire wear consistent? Should we stop rotating our tires?


John

"Building a wall will violate the rights of millions of illegals." [Nancy Pelosi]
 
Posts: 2438 | Location: N.E. Massachusetts | Registered: June 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
I remember briefly running into this at our Costco and getting the same bullshit


Same happened to me at Costco with my fulltime AWD Touareg. They refused to put the tires on the front so I told them to keep the special order tires & went across the street to Tire Discount.
I would much rather have more tread on the front to help prevent hydroplaning loss of streering. I also can handle oversteer much better than understeer. Also the "tire industry" is full of shit.


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Posts: 4357 | Location: Nashville, Tennessee | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do the next
right thing
Picture of bobtheelf
posted Hide Post
That's SOP for almost any large tire shop. It's the same reason brakes are larger on the front. If you're going to lose traction, with precious few exceptions it's better to lose it on the front than the rear. Understeer is generally easier for people to handle than oversteer, and far less likely to lose control entirely.

With tires that aren't very worn it's not really an issue, but a tire shop or their employees aren't going to risk their job over it. They're going to do exactly what the policy says, which is new tires on the rear.
 
Posts: 3682 | Location: Nashville | Registered: July 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
semi-reformed sailor
Picture of MikeinNC
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“I can appreciate your thought Mr. tire guy, but since it’s my money being spent here, I want them on the front. If you can’t do that I will be spending my money elsewhere in the future.”



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Posts: 11516 | Location: Temple, Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do the next
right thing
Picture of bobtheelf
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"Ok, bye. I'm not going to risk my job for it and there's no point in getting upset at me not wanting to risk my job over it."

I mean, you're not wrong, exactly, but you're not right either, and it's not an argument you're going to win. You can go back the next day for a rotation, or to another shop, or whatever, and they'll do it. But they're not going to put new tires on the front for you 99% of the time.
 
Posts: 3682 | Location: Nashville | Registered: July 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of iron chef
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by yanici:
This is interesting. So, why bother rotating tires to keep tire wear consistent? Should we stop rotating our tires?

I've asked this many times and never received an adequate answer. If the tires w/ more tread should always be on the rear axle, then what's the point tire rotation? Should we buy tires in pairs as the front tires wear out, i.e., new tires on the rear and old tires on the front?
 
Posts: 3315 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Technically Adaptive
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by iron chef:
quote:
Originally posted by yanici:
This is interesting. So, why bother rotating tires to keep tire wear consistent? Should we stop rotating our tires?

I've asked this many times and never received an adequate answer. If the tires w/ more tread should always be on the rear axle, then what's the point tire rotation? Should we buy tires in pairs as the front tires wear out, i.e., new tires on the rear and old tires on the front?


All Wheel drive cars will have issues with tire size, some Anti lock brake systems will also. The speed sensors are at each wheel in most cases.

If it's front wheel or rear wheel drive, most times no biggie to change just two.

This new tire on front or back debate, you can do what you want. Just don't sue someone over your decision.
 
Posts: 1389 | Location: Willcox, AZ | Registered: September 24, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
It's the same reason brakes are larger on the front.


Not true, brakes are larger on the front because of weight transference during deceleration. Also when tires with less traction are on the front stopping distance increases.I remember the understeer vs oversteer argument 60 years ago when Ralph Nader existed. Then American auto's were set up to understeer for the same absurd reasoning.


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If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit!

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Posts: 4357 | Location: Nashville, Tennessee | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do the next
right thing
Picture of bobtheelf
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by iron chef:
quote:
Originally posted by yanici:
This is interesting. So, why bother rotating tires to keep tire wear consistent? Should we stop rotating our tires?

I've asked this many times and never received an adequate answer. If the tires w/ more tread should always be on the rear axle, then what's the point tire rotation? Should we buy tires in pairs as the front tires wear out, i.e., new tires on the rear and old tires on the front?


Rotation is not just for tread depth. It also swaps them side to side, and as long as it's not a directional tread, it changes the rotation direction which corrects feathering. Basically it reduces concentrated wear, extending the life of the tires.
 
Posts: 3682 | Location: Nashville | Registered: July 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Not as lean, not as mean,
Still a Marine
Picture of Gibb
posted Hide Post
I see this a lot up here with studded tires. Shops are asked to put them only on the drive axle in front wheeled drive vehicles, but they are not allowed to.

As for the tire rotation issue, I've been told before that if the tires are too far out of difference, they will refuse to rotate the lower treads to the rear. Depends on the shop and what they are willing to risk I guess.




I shall respect you until you open your mouth, from that point on, you must earn it yourself.
 
Posts: 3390 | Location: Southern Maine | Registered: February 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do the next
right thing
Picture of bobtheelf
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Anush:
quote:
It's the same reason brakes are larger on the front.


Not true, brakes are larger on the front because of weight transference during deceleration. Also when tires with less traction are on the front stopping distance increases.I remember the understeer vs oversteer argument 60 years ago when Ralph Nader existed. Then American auto's were set up to understeer for the same absurd reasoning.


Weight transfer is exactly why they're bigger in front. As weight transfers to the front, traction decreases in back, increasing the likelihood of losing traction in back. If the braking force was the same, you'd lose traction in back before in the front.

Thus, it's the same reason you put new tires on the back. To reduce the chance of losing traction in back.

You may think the reasoning is absurd, but they're not putting in the research and all saying the same thing for kicks and giggles. It's a lot easier to recover from understeer than oversteer.
 
Posts: 3682 | Location: Nashville | Registered: July 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
posted Hide Post
^^^true.
Besides, there number of variables that make any blanket statements on this untrue.


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Posts: 9906 | Location: NE GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
You may think the reasoning is absurd, but they're not putting in the research and all saying the same thing for kicks and giggles. It's a lot easier to recover from understeer than oversteer.


Yes I heard that from Ralph Nader, but he never raced a Corvair on mountain roads. Maybe oversteer vs understeer has been researched since 1963. In 1963 understeer was engineered into American autos because the industry said people did not know how to compensate for oversteer & just slammed on the brakes. At my age I am more concerned about wet rainey weather & losing steering control than oversteer or understeer.


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If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit!

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Posts: 4357 | Location: Nashville, Tennessee | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do the next
right thing
Picture of bobtheelf
posted Hide Post
I'm sorry you don't like the guy who is stuck in your head as saying it first, but for most people it's a lot easier to recover when the car is going the same direction as the nose, rather than going the direction of the side, or the tail.

Most people aren't racing on mountain roads, and cars can't be engineered for niche cases. Build a niche car for niche cases.
 
Posts: 3682 | Location: Nashville | Registered: July 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
but for most people it's a lot easier to recover when the car is going the same direction as the nose


Yes, right off the side of the mountain curve in the rain is not recovery. Most of todays' autos have antilock brakes & traction control so hydroplaning is my main concern.


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If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit!

Sigs Owned - A Bunch
 
Posts: 4357 | Location: Nashville, Tennessee | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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