This will be a complicated products liability case with lots of engineering analysis on both sides to offer explanations of what went wrong and whose fault it was.

Liability will not be clear for a long time, if it ever is.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
This will be a complicated products liability case with lots of engineering analysis on both sides to offer explanations of what went wrong and whose fault it was.

Liability will not be clear for a long time, if it ever is.

Why? They admitted they didn't work as designed/manufactured, offered multiple fixes, but in the end lost the confidence of their customer on a product that is made to save their lives.

I understand the law is not what's fair, but I can't see any way this isn't SIGs fault.

quote:

This will be a complicated products liability case with lots of engineering analysis on both sides to offer explanations of what went wrong and whose fault it was.

Liability will not be clear for a long time, if it ever is.

I am sure reading those briefs with all the analysis will be a real snoozer, except for engineers who enjoy that stuff.

New Jersey had a number of AD and self inflicted wound issues when they adopted the P7 years ago, yet they've all functioned just fine once the state emblems were ground off and they were sold off to the public. It was a different manual of arms and adjusting to it was the real problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
Give me a break. What could be wrong with the P229?

Did you actually read the article?

As a matter of fact I did. Bunch of problems with FTE, blah blah blah, Sig doesn't care, NJSP all hurt Sig didn't fix it fast enough, blah blah blah.

Is there a reason you felt it necessary to pontificate to me today?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The armpit of America

I spent a number of years living and working in The Garden State. I must respectfully disagree with you.

New Jersey is NOT the armpit of America.

Rectal orifice, maybe.

With respect to my friends who are retired and active NJSP LEOs, the people I dealt with in the NJSP firearms division were arrogant nasty %#^&@'s who seemed to relish the idea of making arbitrary interpretations of existing gun laws. When I read articles like this, it reminds me of them.

The people who found fault with the P229's are probably not the same people, but having lived in that State for a long time, I hope Sig brings their A game and the NJSP loses this suit, big time.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:


Why? They admitted they didn't work as designed/manufactured, offered multiple fixes, but in the end lost the confidence of their customer on a product that is made to save their lives.

I understand the law is not what's fair, but I can't see any way this isn't SIGs fault.

Well clearly, the justice system has been doing it all wrong. We should just have the judge read a 500 word news story and make his decision.

That was very smart-assed, I know. But it is exactly the point. That is a news story. I am sure there is a lot more to this than is there. And who knows what bias the reporter may have. I promise that who did what wrong, and how much it should cost and who should pay is a lot more complicated than this story makes it appear.

Maybe they should now talk to their uniform vendor. Those are hideous! I've never liked their patch - looks like a slice of pizza on their arm . . . .

According to Trace, the NJ police had problems from the start. Sig repeatedly sent them parts and problems continued until NY send everything back and bought Glocks.

Part of the article claimed that out of 25 randomly chosen pistols, five failed to work properly.
The NY had ordered a Legacy but received the Lagacy Elite, the newer version. Sig exchangedthe guns for the Legacy version but problems continued.

Got back to the 5 out of 25. If correct, Sig must be inundated with 229s being returned. Is that happening?

One question that was raised was the ammunition used for training. It would be interesting if Sig inspected and test fired the pistols after they were returned.

Another question is the research and evaluation that NJ did before sel citing the 229. Trace doesn't comment.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
Probably just a bunch of limp-wristed New Jerseyites who don't know how to shoot.

Umm, as much as I think if the residents can't carry then neither should the cops, I can tell you, NJSP training is just shy of Navy Seals. Not one of them is anything short of tough mother fuckers. They shoot the good stuff and spare no expense to the Suckers that pay the taxes.

Clearly some didn't read the article as Sig replaced changed a lot of parts on these guns, that they admit were below standards. Sorry Boys, this one IS a Sig issue...

quote:

Originally posted by downtownv:
I can tell you, NJSP training is just shy of Navy Seals.

I've known a LOT of guys, heard a LOT of stories and I never knew that. I don't doubt they shoot the good stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:

quote:

Originally posted by downtownv:
I can tell you, NJSP training is just shy of Navy Seals.

Here I've driven a Troop car, and I never knew that. Hmmm

10 mile runs EVERYDAY regardless of weather on the Beach with 85 Pound Duffle bags across your back at 5 am rain/shine/snow summer/winter/spring and fall.
If a trooper goes down, the others must carry him.
Then every delicious meal is served so hot you burn the roof of your mouth, in 4 minutes what's not eaten goes in the trash. Until the next very hot meal...
My SIL is a NJ State Trooper.
I will ask him about Sig Issues, he may or May not tell me, they are a funny bunch.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the op's thread...

quote:

Originally posted by downtownv:

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:

quote:

Originally posted by downtownv:
I can tell you, NJSP training is just shy of Navy Seals.

Here I've driven a Troop car, and I never knew that. Hmmm

10 mile runs EVERYDAY regardless of weather on the Beach with 85 Pound Duffle bags across your back at 5 am rain/shine/snow summer/winter/spring and fall.
If a trooper goes down, the others must carry him.
Then every delicious meal is served so hot you burn the roof of your mouth, in 4 minutes what's not eaten goes in the trash. Until the next very hot meal...
My SIL is a NJ State Trooper.
I will ask him about Sig Issues, he may or May not tell me, they are a funny bunch.

I attended the NJSP Municipal Academy, NOT the SP Academy, in 1975. It was worse than basic training. We lost half of the number we started with. I will never forget standing at attention the first 3 minutes of the Academy. These huge Troopers started yelling and poking at you. TWO guys left after three minutes! Never forget it.

The regular Academy for the Troopers IS legendary for it's ruthless efficiency at weeding out the weak.

quote:

Originally posted by downtownv:


10 mile runs EVERYDAY regardless of weather on the Beach with 85 Pound Duffle bags across your back at 5 am rain/shine/snow summer/winter/spring and fall.
If a trooper goes down, the others must carry him.
Then every delicious meal is served so hot you burn the roof of your mouth, in 4 minutes what's not eaten goes in the trash. Until the next very hot meal...
My SIL is a NJ State Trooper.
I will ask him about Sig Issues, he may or May not tell me, they are a funny bunch.

Somebody pulled your leg.

"Each day begins with roll call at 6:00 a.m."

"Recruits begin week one with a daily 1.5 mile run which increases by 10% per week to a maximum of five miles at an 8 minute pace."

http://www.njsp.org/recruiting/academy.shtml

quote:

Originally posted by P210:

quote:

Originally posted by downtownv:


10 mile runs EVERYDAY regardless of weather on the Beach with 85 Pound Duffle bags across your back at 5 am rain/shine/snow summer/winter/spring and fall.
If a trooper goes down, the others must carry him.
Then every delicious meal is served so hot you burn the roof of your mouth, in 4 minutes what's not eaten goes in the trash. Until the next very hot meal...
My SIL is a NJ State Trooper.
I will ask him about Sig Issues, he may or May not tell me, they are a funny bunch.

Somebody pulled your leg.

"Each day begins with roll call at 6:00 a.m."

"Recruits begin week one with a daily 1.5 mile run which increases by 10% per week to a maximum of five miles at an 8 minute pace."

http://www.njsp.org/recruiting/academy.shtml

Really? Wonder what the military publishes vs what they do...... although it could be 6am instead of 5am.

quote:

Originally posted by downtownv:

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:

quote:

Originally posted by downtownv:
I can tell you, NJSP training is just shy of Navy Seals.

Here I've driven a Troop car, and I never knew that. Hmmm

10 mile runs EVERYDAY regardless of weather on the Beach with 85 Pound Duffle bags across your back at 5 am rain/shine/snow summer/winter/spring and fall.
If a trooper goes down, the others must carry him.
Then every delicious meal is served so hot you burn the roof of your mouth, in 4 minutes what's not eaten goes in the trash. Until the next very hot meal...
My SIL is a NJ State Trooper.
I will ask him about Sig Issues, he may or May not tell me, they are a funny bunch.

Lol what? Navy SEALS? My daily beach patrol workouts are way tougher than that shit...don't make me laugh. But then again, we did let those fat asses use our showers every now and then when they came to have their rookies run on the sand in Wildwood Crest.

I also used to instruct NJ State Police in surf rescue techniques. Their biggest issues was securing their weapon and putting on a helmet....

Sounds like shitty ammo...
but toilets do flush backwards in New Jersey, so there's no telling how the physics of a firearm works there.

Wonder how many pounds the trigger pull was mandated to be and what other modifications they wanted on the pistols?