I’ve been a wreck all day. My heart goes out to the families.

I first rode in the Nine-O-Nine in 2012 when Collings came to Southern California, and attended the B-17 Crew Camp in 2013. Older members here may remember my thread on that.

Mac, the pilot who lost his life today, flew us both instances and it was as smooth as can be, including the landing which was so soft we all looked at each other and asked “did we land?”

Blue skies and tail winds, Mac.

Sad day and condolences to the families.

I use to go to see them with my father when they would be at the Weyers Cave Airport. The Dragon and Its Tail was in his Squadron but is not the same plane.

Some of the pilots were volunteers and it seemed like the crowds at the events have been smaller in the recent years.

One year a person took a ride in the Betty Jane Mustang and then after landing talked to his wife and wrote a check for a second ride. They were gone for a long time the second time so he got his money's worth.

At this point in the investigation this appears to be a fairly balanced reporting of this tragedy and the facts surrounding, not only this a/c, but the operation of War Birds in general.

In one terrible ironic sense, War Bird and vintage airplane crashes involving fatalities impact the aviation and War Bird communities the way mass public killings affect the gun and shooting community. Hopefully cooler minds will prevail before legislators knee-jerk react into "we must take action immediately" before all the facts surrounding this tragedy are known.




Link to original video: https://youtu.be/Fpv-xxYQ8-o

quote:

Originally posted by Windhover:
I’ve been a wreck all day. My heart goes out to the families.

I first rode in the Nine-O-Nine in 2012 when Collings came to Southern California, and attended the B-17 Crew Camp in 2013. Older members here may remember my thread on that.

Mac, the pilot who lost his life today, flew us both instances and it was as smooth as can be, including the landing which was so soft we all looked at each other and asked “did we land?”

Blue skies and tail winds, Mac.

Windhover, if you happen to know the flight crew aboard Nine-O-Nine when she went down today would you please email me through my profile contact.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
They lost No. 4 engine on climbout. Is that enough to require a return?

EDIT:

"What's the reason for coming back?"
"...is on No. 4 engine. We'd like to return and blow it off."

Fire?

Engine failures in radial powered airplanes are routine. However, I've had many occasions when shutting one down depended on getting that propeller feathered, because three engines were not enough to keep the airplane airborne with a prop that wouldn't feather.

I've had a number of engines catch fire in flight, and cause other problems.

Surface condtions with wind impact landing with an engine out in a large conventional gear (tailwheel) airplane.

With The B24 and B17, an outboard engine-out (#4) requires about 70 lbs of force on the rudder pedal, if carrying power on the opposite outboard engine (#1). I have finished checkrides in which my leg wouldn't stop shaking after the ride, due to two hours of working that rudder. All direct cable, nothing boosted, muscle it around.

Is it an emergency? It can be.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
The airplane should be able to climb out on three engines, if nothing else is wrong.

It is not a Part 25, transport category airplane with a required 2nd segment climb capability.

I've had a lot of days, climbing with a load, when climb performance was 100 fpm with all four turning.

Heartbreaking news all round, especially here in UK at the IWM Duxford, where sister airplane, 'Sally B' resides and flies.

Greatest sympathies and condolences from the tac family, who has often admired this piece of living history taking to the air in its very own majestic manner.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Hopefully cooler minds will prevail before legislators knee-jerk react into "we must take action immediately" before all the facts surrounding this tragedy are known.

Senator Blumenthal Fuck-face already started last night. Never let a tragedy go to waste.

quote:

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Hopefully cooler minds will prevail before legislators knee-jerk react into "we must take action immediately" before all the facts surrounding this tragedy are known.

Senator Blumenthal Fuck-face already started last night. Never let a tragedy go to waste.

I saw that on the news - what a fucking tool. Surprised he's not trying to ban them.

MDS

I had the opportunity to fly in “Nine O’ Nine” about twenty years ago. It was an incredible experience and I’m sure thousands of others that had the same opportunity are asking themselves whether or not such flights can or should be continued. We all felt privileged to see, feel, hear, and even smell the things that set these old warbirds apart from modern aircraft. I know the “controversy” of continuing these flights will be discussed in the coming days and I understand the issues, but honestly I’m not sure what’s “right.”

The loss of life and the loss of an important part of our history are tragic, but whether or not such flights can or should be subject to further regulation or outright prohibited (considering not only the age of the aircraft, but the fact it’s private property that might otherwise be left to decay without the funds donated by passengers that keep these birds flying) are ALL valid questions that should be addressed intelligently and with full understanding of what occurred here. Political grandstanding by opportunistic demagogues shouldn’t be tolerated.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

an outboard engine-out (#4) requires about 70 lbs of force on the rudder pedal, if carrying power on the opposite outboard engine (#1). I have finished checkrides in which my leg wouldn't stop shaking after the ride, due to two hours of working that rudder. All direct cable, nothing boosted, muscle it around.

Very interesting. Is there no rudder trim?

I have had engine failure on an Aero Commander 520 (an early one, serial # 18) when a piston departed at a "high rate of velocity" (the maintenance guy's words, when he was surveying the damage) through the cowl, and there is enough rudder trim authority to be able to fly straight with no pedal pressure required. Kind of surprising that the big ones do not have that much trim available.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
They lost No. 4 engine on climbout. Is that enough to require a return?

EDIT:

"What's the reason for coming back?"
"...is on No. 4 engine. We'd like to return and blow it off."

Fire?

Could it be "...is on No. 4 engine. We'd like to return and blow it out." ?

quote:

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Hopefully cooler minds will prevail before legislators knee-jerk react into "we must take action immediately" before all the facts surrounding this tragedy are known.

Senator Blumenthal Fuck-face already started last night. Never let a tragedy go to waste.

He didn't start last night, he started at the first news conference early in the afternoon. I think he actually showed up a few minutes late and jammed himself in front of the camera as soon as he could.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Very interesting. Is there no rudder trim?

Yes, there is. That's with rudder trim.

It's best to think of these airplanes as big light twins, with significant asymmetric thrust with an outboard engine inoperative.

Feathering takes place using an oil pump (feathering motor); push a button, a holding coil holds the button in while the prop feathers, and then the button should pop out. If the button stays in, the prop will drive right back out of feather, again. If the engine had a significant oil loss (failed prop governor stephead base, lifted jug, etc), there may not be remaining oil to feather. Because they're round engines, they're geared on both ends, and there's a LOT of drag on a windmilling propeller (if you've ever pulled one through by hand as part of a preflight, you can imagine the resistance just to compression. Add superchargers, reduction gearing, accessory drives, etc, and the windmilling prop is a lot of drag...considerably higher than a big plywood disc out there the size of the prop arc).

The engines can lose considerable oil in flight. This can flow back over the exhaust collector and wind up on fire. It can't be put out easily, if at all.

Gear retracts up into the inboard nacelle; a brake fire (canvas expander tube brakes, with H5606), it's right next to the oil tank, fuel cells, etc.

With pressure carburetors, a mag slip can result in a backfire through the carb and instant engine fire. The exhaust collector is continually on fire (really visible at night: you can set the mixture on a lot of these engines by the color of the flame, at night). A fuel or oil leak can quickly result in a fire.

The B17 in particular was an early design with a very small payload. It's not a high performance aircraft by any stretch. Operating with a few people on board and no additional load, ammunition, partial fuel, etc, it's better than an operational B17, but most of the four engine airplanes of that era needed all four for climb performance, and climb was never great.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
I have had engine failure on an Aero Commander 520 (an early one, serial # 18) when a piston departed at a "high rate of velocity" (the maintenance guy's words, when he was surveying the damage) through the cowl, and there is enough rudder trim authority to be able to fly straight with no pedal pressure required. Kind of surprising that the big ones do not have that much trim available.

The Twin Commander has a very large rudder. The 500 series have good single engine performance, relatively speaking. It's why, with energy management, Bob Hoover was able to put a Shrike through a full aerobatic routine on two, shut one down and do it again, then shut the remaining one down and do it again.

I had an engine failure in a Shrike that Hoover flew, and it occurred during a descent. There was no significant yaw change, such that without looking at the instrumentation, one wouldn't know the engine was gone. Lots of rudder.

The 24 and the 17 have rudder trim, but opposing the opposite outboard engine still takes considerable leg, even trimmed. The solution, if conditions permit, is to reduce power on the good outboard.

quote:

Originally posted by steve495:

quote:

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Hopefully cooler minds will prevail before legislators knee-jerk react into "we must take action immediately" before all the facts surrounding this tragedy are known.

Senator Blumenthal Fuck-face already started last night. Never let a tragedy go to waste.

He didn't start last night, he started at the first news conference early in the afternoon. I think he actually showed up a few minutes late and jammed himself in front of the camera as soon as he could.

Sorry. I was off by a few hours

quote:

Originally posted by steve495:

quote:

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Hopefully cooler minds will prevail before legislators knee-jerk react into "we must take action immediately" before all the facts surrounding this tragedy are known.

Senator Blumenthal Fuck-face already started last night. Never let a tragedy go to waste.

He didn't start last night, he started at the first news conference early in the afternoon. I think he actually showed up a few minutes late and jammed himself in front of the camera as soon as he could.

Yes, he was flapping his gums in front of a camera before the fire was out. What a dick.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
The airplane should be able to climb out on three engines, if nothing else is wrong.


It is not a Part 25, transport category airplane with a required 2nd segment climb capability.

I've had a lot of days, climbing with a load, when climb performance was 100 fpm with all four turning.

Just to be clear guppy, are you suggesting that a B17G with 10 passengers on board and a fuel load that the crew would use for a sightseeing flight would likely have trouble climbing on three with the fourth feathered?

I’ve not flown in 909. The year that Mrs. slosig and I flew down to VNY to go for a ride in the Collings Foundation’s B24 (my late father was a B24 captain in WWII) we knew we were in trouble when we walked up and there was an engine uncowled, so I’ve not even flown in a four engine bomber. I have however, flown in a B25 that was relatively full of pax and it certainly seemed very lightly loaded.

Seems a little hard to believe that an aircraft designed to handle a 4,800 pound load of bombs would be accepted by the service if losing an engine on takeoff guaranteed it would produce an explosion off the end of the runway. Sure, the FAA standard of 170# is probably no longer realistic for pax, but I’d guess a realistic number is far short of 480# or one tenth of the bomb load. And that’s not even considering the weight removed when the aircraft was demil’d.

I’ll stand by the comment that the airplane *should* have been able to climb out on three if nothing else was wrong. A fire would be a whole different scenario though.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

an outboard engine-out (#4) requires about 70 lbs of force on the rudder pedal, if carrying power on the opposite outboard engine (#1). I have finished checkrides in which my leg wouldn't stop shaking after the ride, due to two hours of working that rudder. All direct cable, nothing boosted, muscle it around.

Very interesting. Is there no rudder trim?

I have had engine failure on an Aero Commander 520 (an early one, serial # 18) when a piston departed at a "high rate of velocity" (the maintenance guy's words, when he was surveying the damage) through the cowl, and there is enough rudder trim authority to be able to fly straight with no pedal pressure required. Kind of surprising that the big ones do not have that much trim available.

I’d be surprised if there weren’t rudder trim in the B17 with similar authority to any other ME airplane. I too have rolled in enough trim on multiple twins to cruise straight and level (well yaw string straight anyway) with one engine feathered, but when quickly returning I have also left the trim alone and just done the leg press so that I wouldn’t be fighting that trim on short final at lower power settings or on the ground at idle.

I can’t help wondering where the right main gear is in relation to number four on a B17 and whether a fire on #4 compromised the structure of the right wing causing bad things to happen on rollout. I’m not going to speculate though. I’m sure that more information will come out in time.

ETA: Hi guppy, I see you replied while I was typing. I’d consider not being able to feather as something else being wrong. I can certainly see rudder trim not being able to make that a no rudder pressure operation, and also a negative rate of climb operation. Would being unable to feather a dead engine in a B17 or other four engine piston a/c you’ve flown be considered an emergency?

Fully loaded wartime B-17s that lost an engine on takeoff were mostly screwed. If they passed the point of no return they could either try to climb out or try to belly in. Either option was a coin toss and often ended badly for the entire crew.

B-17Gs had a modification that provided enough fluid (oil or hydraulic; not sure which) that would enable a dead engine to feather its prop after total engine power loss. Who knows if a) it was still in place on Nine O Nine, or b) if it was functional.

Without guns, bombs, antique radio gear, etc, I have to think she could have maintained enough power for a go-around on 3 engines. I'm no expert, of course.

Does anybody know how she hit the de-icing building? (In the air on approach or after touch down?) Pilot error is a natural assumption, but the plane WAS 70+ years old, so a mechanical failure cannot be ruled out. . .

Just up - https://www.foxnews.com/us/wor...ational-guard-rescue

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
B-17Gs had a modification that provided enough fluid (oil or hydraulic; not sure which) that would enable a dead engine to feather its prop after total engine power loss. Who knows if a) it was still in place on Nine O Nine, or b) if it was functional.

Again, it's a feather pump; it uses engine oil. Every Hamilton Standard hydromatic propeller feathers after the engine has failed, but it has to be driven into the feather position with the pump, and it's got to be watched carefully, because it will drive right back out of feather if the pump stays engaged. If the engine has lost oil or or losing it, there may be one shot, or no shots at feathering, depending on the loss.

Oil for the feather pump is drawn from the main oil feed line from the tank (37 gallon tank for each engine) to the engine.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

Just to be clear guppy, are you suggesting that a B17G with 10 passengers on board and a fuel load that the crew would use for a sightseeing flight would likely have trouble climbing on three with the fourth feathered?

Depends on the fuel load and the nature of what failed. Bear in mind that nearly all the cylinders on these engines are not new: they've been reworked, many multiple times since the second world war. The cylinder head stays on the culinder by an interference fit: get it hot or incease the manifold pressure too much, and you'l lift the heads; nobody runs these at the pressures they originally saw, and nobody will risk a rare, valuable airplane using the power settings that were used back then: these aircraft are babied, because if pushed, bad things can happen.

A lot of numbers are gone from my head at this point, but we were running R2600's on a lot of aircraft that never had them: we seldom exceeded 32" Hg MP on these airplanes, even though they were rated for considerably more. Pushing the power up is an invitation for bad stuff to happen. You may find yourself with considerably fewer than 3 engines at that point.

These airplanes had a very small useful load.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

I can’t help wondering where the right main gear is in relation to number four on a B17 and whether a fire on #4 compromised the structure of the right wing causing bad things to happen on rollout. I’m not going to speculate though. I’m sure that more information will come out in time.

The right main gear is below the inboard right engine (#3).

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
ETA: Hi guppy, I see you replied while I was typing. I’d consider not being able to feather as something else being wrong. I can certainly see rudder trim not being able to make that a no rudder pressure operation, and also a negative rate of climb operation. Would being unable to feather a dead engine in a B17 or other four engine piston a/c you’ve flown be considered an emergency?

The inability to feather could be a real problem. Most of the time with an engine failure in a radial engine airplane, it's not really an emergency. I've had perhaps 50 engine failures in large radials; I don't think I've ever made an emergency declaration with one, although certainly in each case we jettisoned the load and returned to land. Could it be an emergency? Yes. Absolutely.

If a cylinder head lifts, attached to it is the induction tube and exhaust. The induction tube comes off the supercharger and is pumping the fuel/air mixture to the cylinder. If the head lifts and opens the induction, now the engine is pumping that mixture onto hot exhaust, etc.

There are too many possibilities here and not enough information at present; details will emerge soon enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
Does anybody know how she hit the de-icing building? (In the air on approach or after touch down?) Pilot error is a natural assumption, but the plane WAS 70+ years old, so a mechanical failure cannot be ruled out. . .

We're now hearing the aircraft hit some ILS stanchions on approach to RWY 6, then may have spun-out in the grass, then to the right and went into the de-icing area.

quote:

Originally posted by steve495:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
They lost No. 4 engine on climbout. Is that enough to require a return?

EDIT:

"What's the reason for coming back?"
"...is on No. 4 engine. We'd like to return and blow it off."

Fire?

Could it be "...is on No. 4 engine. We'd like to return and blow it out." ?

I listened to the recording several times, and it sounds like off to me, but yes it could be out. The press is saying out. Maybe it's a yanny/laurel thing.