From Fox News video of the Cinci bank shooting. At 1:31, it appears that the cop was going through the racking motion. But, then, you see that he started laying the AR on the ground, and you see that the AR's magwell had no mag in it.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/583...3001/?#sp=show-clips

Looks like an regular AR. I think his hand just slipping which gave the pump motion. It also appears the mag well is empty.

It appears to be a standard AR-15. But you're correct that it doesn't have a mag in it. Hence why he discards the rifle and resorts to his handgun, once he realizes it's useless.

All the shots appear to have been fired by the first two officers with their handguns. That particular officer doesn't appear to have fired any shots, and there's no mag visible on the ground, so it's not like he ran through all 20/30 rounds, ejected the empty magazine, and just didn't have a reload handy. The officer may have forgotten to insert a magazine in the first place, if his agency requires patrol rifles to be stored with no magazine. (Not the norm, but each agency does things differently.) Or he may have inadvertently ejected the magazine in his haste along the way.

Either way, if that's the case, he needs more/better training.

And ideally, he should have had at least one spare rifle magazine available on himself or his rifle, so even if something happened to the first magazine (forgot/dropped/broke/spent/whatever), he could still keep his rifle in the fight.

Watching the video at quarter speed it appears he brings his left hand back from the forearm and open hand slaps the rifle above and slightly forward of the magwell. This happens to be the location of the mag release which could explain why there's no mag when he sets it down.

My guess is he fired until empty off camera, slapped the release (which we see), the mag dropped (which we don't see - blocked from view), and we don't see the mag on the ground because the officer moves forward as he sets the rifle down.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Watching the video at quarter speed it appears he brings his left hand back from the forearm and open hand slaps the rifle above and slightly forward of the magwell. This happens to be the location of the mag release which could explain why there's no mag when he sets it down.

I believe you're thinking of the bolt catch/release, which is the paddle on the left side above the magwell, operable with an open left hand slap.

Not the magazine release, which is a button on the opposite side just forward of the trigger, and which has to be depressed with the tip of the index finger on the right hand.

Damn, senior moment. You are of course correct. That's the bolt release he slaps. So, he slaps the bolt release, pulls the trigger, it doesn't fire (because it's not loaded), he sets it down and transitions to his side arm.

I am very impressed with your diagrams and pics. Do you teach firearms instruction? Nice explanation too!

I will be curious to see what happened. There may be a good training lesson there. He certainly didn't hesitate to be in the fight.

I'm never the video sharp eyed person that picks up the smallest details but near the end it looks like his slide is locked back as he points through the glass.

I never catch the small details in the video. People who have extraordinary visual attention to detail are good at these things. Reading comprehension is my skill. I did read that the shooter had a 9mm Taurus that jammed during the fight. Did anyone see if the shooter attempted to clear his weapon after the jam? He apparently had another 200 rounds. I also read the one of the victims who survived was shot twelve times. The story did not say whether she was hit by the assailant's rounds.

It's always best to bring a loaded gun to a gunfight.

Just more evidence that LEOSA is bullshit.

What he did was fuck it up, but at least he recovered and ditched the rifle.

Must have been a shitty feeling, all ready to shoot and then ‘click’, no bang.

The first two cops (guy and gal) seemed to be the ones to take him down, engaging through the windows. In fact it seems like she did most of the good shooting before AR-guy showed up.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
Do you teach firearms instruction?

Yes. Both for my agency as well as the police academy in my area.

Cincy carries their rifles cruiser ready (at least they did 14 years ago when I was there) magazine inserted but no round chamber until use is needed.

That video is not as good as the raw body cam video but you can here what sounds like a magazine drop just prior to him yelling fuck.

I believe what happened was that his magazine was not fully seated and when he went to charge the weapon the magazine dropped out.
In my reading of the incident only 11 total shots were fired, none being rifle rounds.

So I presume it was not after a reload.

I have had this issue in my Rock River when I have tried to load a full mag on a closed bolt. While the mag is inserted enough to be held in place it is not fully seated when you go to charge it drops right out.
I ALWAYS give my mags one hell of a smack on the closed bolt as it is not a good feeling when it drops on you. Thankfully I was just practicing.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
I have had this issue in my Rock River when I have tried to load a full mag on a closed bolt. While the mag is inserted enough to be held in place it is not fully seated when you go to charge it drops right out.
I ALWAYS give my mags one hell of a smack on the closed bolt as it is not a good feeling when it drops on you. Thankfully I was just practicing.

I may be old school, but a good Navy friend who worked with a pretty tough group of individuals always told me to load 28 in GI metal magazines. Might be old and outdated, but it makes seating on a closed bolt very easy. He worked that way successfully for many years.

While that may not be applicable to some of the more modern polymer mags, most of which are made to have some room to allow for a full mag to be seated with ease on a closed bolt, it's what I do with my NHMTG / Surefeed / D&G metal magazines (capacity -2). PMAGs I load full up.

We were trained to NEVER put our rifle on the ground. That’s what the sling is for—-to transition the rifle from “in hand” to around the back so it’s on your person and not picked up by somebody. I found what he did to be against most training I’ve seen.

quote:

Originally posted by snoris:
We were trained to NEVER put our rifle on the ground. That’s what the sling is for—-to transition the rifle from “in hand” to around the back so it’s on your person and not picked up by somebody. I found what he did to be against most training I’ve seen.

No kidding! I watched that body camera video earlier today and said the same thing.

WHIO.COM TV7: POLICE BODY CAM: Running toward gunfire, taking down a killer
Published: Friday, September 07, 2018 @ 3:54 PM
By: Breaking News Staff



— "Running towards the gunfire, officers spotted a lone gunman actively firing shots in the first-floor lobby of the building," said Cincinnati Police Chief Eliot Isaac during a news conference Friday, one day after a deadly shooting on Fountain Square. 

And what came next he and Mayor John Cranley described as “heroism.”  The two praised the life-saving actions of four officers during Thursday's active shooter situation inside the Fifth Third Bank Center lobby. 

The four officers are identifed as:  
• Officer Jennifer Chilton, 2008 (she is the second body camera) 
• Officer Antonio Etter, 2002, first officer on the scene, working off-duty nearby at construction area 
• Officer Eric Kaminsky, 1997 
• Police Specialist Greg Toyeas, 1990, SWAT Tactical Coordinator Unit 
Isaac said another first responding officer working on the perimeter of the scene was spending his last day on the job before retirement when the shots rang out. 

"As officers tactially approached the building, multiple gunshots rang out, which enabled the officers to pinpoint the shooter's location," Isaac said. "Four of the responding officers were able to engage the gunman, shooting him through the plate glass window, causing him to fall to the floor." 
In two separate body camera videos released today, you can see and hear the brave officers as they approach the building and gunfire, and engage Perez. 
Between the four officers, Isaac said they fired 11 rounds, 8 from their 9mm sidearms, 2 from a shotgun, and 1 from a rifle. 
It's not known which officer or officers struck Perez, that will come from the coroner's office, said Isaac.”

This message has been edited. Last edited by: striker1,

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

Between the four officers, Isaac said they fired 11 rounds, 8 from their 9mm sidearms, 2 from a shotgun, and 1 from a rifle. 
It's not known which officer or officers struck Perez, that will come from the coroner's office, said Isaac.”

Yeah, it sounds as if he had dropped the mag at some point before engaging. He fired the one round that was in the chamber and then realized he had no mag in the rifle. It was probably lying somewhere between his patrol vehicle (or in it) and where he dropped the rifle.

On another point, pretty conservative round count all things being considered. Not bad.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
I have had this issue in my Rock River when I have tried to load a full mag on a closed bolt. While the mag is inserted enough to be held in place it is not fully seated when you go to charge it drops right out.
I ALWAYS give my mags one hell of a smack on the closed bolt as it is not a good feeling when it drops on you. Thankfully I was just practicing.

I may be old school, but a good Navy friend who worked with a pretty tough group of individuals always told me to load 28 in GI metal magazines. Might be old and outdated, but it makes seating on a closed bolt very easy. He worked that way successfully for many years.

While that may not be applicable to some of the more modern polymer mags, most of which are made to have some room to allow for a full mag to be seated with ease on a closed bolt, it's what I do with my NHMTG / Surefeed / D&G metal magazines (capacity -2). PMAGs I load full up.

While the reasoning you have given is wise. Though PMAGs will do it to me too.
For many departments and agencies down loading duty magazines is a huge NO NO for round accountability documentation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gustofer:
It's always best to bring a loaded gun to a gunfight.

Just more evidence that LEOSA is bullshit.[/QUOTE.

What does LEOSA have to do with anything here?