So, how local? Used leafs, with rather limited range left - say 80 miles, or so, are only a few thousand - a friend uses them as ranch cars, as they're the same price as golf carts.

I question whether there is enough lithium in the world to power all of these expensive, limited use electric cars.

quote:

So, how local? Used leafs, with rather limited range left - say 80 miles, or so, are only a few thousand - a friend uses them as ranch cars, as they're the same price as golf carts.

Frequently: ~40-70 miles
Occasionally: ~200 miles
Once/Twice a Month: ~330 miles

EV needs to be able to handle Freq and Occas at least. And ideally Once/Twice otherwise somewhat inconvenient. Current 3 is almost fully there; would probably need to top off in the middle of the Once/Twice trip. New 3 with extended range would cover it easily. So wondering when they will be available.

quote:

Originally posted by markand:
I question whether there is enough lithium in the world to power all of these expensive, limited use electric cars.

A couple of projects are being worked on in Nevada to recover lithium from salt flats? I think. I haven't researched much.

A couple of battery recycling companies are popping up that I've been watching.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:

quote:

So, how local? Used leafs, with rather limited range left - say 80 miles, or so, are only a few thousand - a friend uses them as ranch cars, as they're the same price as golf carts.

Frequently: ~40-70 miles
Occasionally: ~200 miles
Once/Twice a Month: ~330 miles

EV needs to be able to handle Freq and Occas at least. And ideally Once/Twice otherwise somewhat inconvenient. Current 3 is almost fully there; would probably need to top off in the middle of the Once/Twice trip. New 3 with extended range would cover it easily. So wondering when they will be available.

Topping off at a Supercharger is pretty painless. It takes a while to get a *full* charge as the battery's absorption rate drops off as it gets full, but the middle 50% of the battery recharge is quite fast. Not as fast as getting gas at a station of course, but about as fast as some Costco lines I've been in, lol.

quote:

Originally posted by markand:
I question whether there is enough lithium in the world to power all of these expensive, limited use electric cars.

The ultimate solution is not lithium, but instead, what comes next. Lithium has too many limitations for it to be the best solution.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Topping off at a Supercharger is pretty painless. It takes a while to get a *full* charge as the battery's absorption rate drops off as it gets full, but the middle 50% of the battery recharge is quite fast. Not as fast as getting gas at a station of course, but about as fast as some Costco lines I've been in, lol.

Yea, that's what I hear. And just need enough juice to get back home (usually less than 150 miles). The concern here is the sketchy neighborhoods.

So the question from the OP remains:

1) any insights re: when 3 with new extended battery (and $25K price) will be available?

2) any insights re: when Toyota will release a comparable EV?

If not, maybe I've finally stumped the SF brain trust.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Topping off at a Supercharger is pretty painless. It takes a while to get a *full* charge as the battery's absorption rate drops off as it gets full, but the middle 50% of the battery recharge is quite fast. Not as fast as getting gas at a station of course, but about as fast as some Costco lines I've been in, lol.

Yea, that's what I hear. And just need enough juice to get back home (usually less than 150 miles). The concern here is the sketchy neighborhoods.

So the question from the OP remains:

1) any insights re: when 3 with new extended battery (and $25K price) will be available?

2) any insights re: when Toyota will release a comparable EV?

If not, maybe I've finally stumped the SF brain trust.

Just remember (which you may already know), the Tesla Superchargers are proprietary and not compatible with other EV's. (This is something Tesla and the other manufacturers need to resolve going forward.) As such the available charging options for non-Tesla vehicles are really slow by comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Topping off at a Supercharger is pretty painless. It takes a while to get a *full* charge as the battery's absorption rate drops off as it gets full, but the middle 50% of the battery recharge is quite fast. Not as fast as getting gas at a station of course, but about as fast as some Costco lines I've been in, lol.

Yea, that's what I hear. And just need enough juice to get back home (usually less than 150 miles). The concern here is the sketchy neighborhoods.

So the question from the OP remains:

1) any insights re: when 3 with new extended battery (and $25K price) will be available?

2) any insights re: when Toyota will release a comparable EV?

If not, maybe I've finally stumped the SF brain trust.

I follow EV news pretty closely as I have a fairly large investment position in a number of EV companies (TSLA, RIDE, GOEV, HYLN, QS, CIIG, and so forth). I don't recall hearing that Toyota has anything in the works. They're still caught up in hydrogen fuel cell.

Hyundai Ioniq EV was just teased a few days ago. That may be your best bet for a reliable-ish EV.

Toyota's Solid-State Battery Prototype Could Be an EV Game Changer

https://www.motortrend.com/new...ate-battery-ev-2021/

Yeah, but Toyota isn't planning any sort of EV until 2025. Toyota also hasn't released a functioning prototype of it's solid state battery as far as I can tell.

QuantumScape has actually released test data from it's solid state battery recently, but they don't anticipate having anything production ready until 2023. Volkswagen currently has a partnership with QS, so it would appear that Volkswagen is currently in the lead to market a solid state battery in an EV.

Tesla also recently announced a much cheaper Model Y (standard range, single motor).

I've been talking to a neighbor quite a bit about getting an EV...likely for my wife who pretty much stays within a 100 mile radius. He has a Model S, A Model 3, and a Leaf (for his daughter).

He says the biggest selling point for his wife was never having to go to a gas station again, always having a full tank (battery) in the morning, and the almost non-existent maintenance. We have a couple of Superchargers in the area, with the nearest about 20mins away for when they want to take a trip to SoCal.

His recommendation is the Model Y as the almost perfect car. Specking on the Model 3, he recommends the Long Range version. He looked seriously at the Mustang Mach E and considers it a serious contender...but Ford doesn't have the charging infrastructure to compete with Tesla's Supercharger Stations

Within the EV community, any revolutionary new tech isn't expected before 2025. That includes anything that Toyota might put out...they are well behind the EV curve

quote:

Originally posted by BigSwede:
GM is going to go full retard, have you seen their new "all inclusive" logo?

Why do they consider that an all inclusive logo?

I’m mostly curious about how the charging stations will continue to be added. I’ve done the electrical drawing, utility, and permit coordination for a few and the construction cost for a 4 dispenser rapid changing station is around $250k. The monthly utility service fee is more than most of the stations do total business in a month due to the 500 or 1000kVa transformers needed to power them. I don’t see any traditional fueling stations spending the investment as it will never be profitable. Heck if it wasn’t for VW getting caught cheating their emissions the EV station network wouldn’t be anywhere near what it is now for the less populated areas.

I’m glad you guys are wringing out the kinks. EV would work for me if I was willing to buy an extra car for short daily driving. Not only am I not willing, it’s funny how the very idea of a dedicated commuter car in addition to an ICE car is wildly defeating of the environmentally friendly idea of the EV. No math makes the manufacture and use of two complete cars more environmentally sound than just one ICE.

I am very leery of banking on the next big step in tech. That’s a leap of faith that isn’t justified. When I buy an alternative source motor vehicle it will be one that has already figured out the bumps. Right now we are basically letting the richer folk in America beta test EV. Good for you guys. Unless the current blueprint doesn’t stay the future blueprint.

Based on things I am seeing in the powertrain industry, I think hydrogen fuel cells are going to be the answer. The problem with batteries is weight. Bigger battery is heavier, needing more battery power to tote the battery around.

Hydrogen is more energy dense, refuels faster, and the existing gasoline distribution network can be adapted more readily to it than to battery charging stations.

For small cars the battery/hydrogen tradeoff isn't really clear, but when it comes to commercial vehicles hauling heavy loads, there is no contest. Without a battery that can offer 10x the range in the same weight, an EV Semi is not viable.

I ve learned a lot in the past few months

12/7 I ordered a model 3 long range dual motor
12/23 I took delivery. Many speak of QC issues. Mine was perfect when it came off the truck

it’s a misnomer only Tesla’s can charge at super chargers. Multiple companies make adapters. The limitation is most EVs can’t accept such a hot charge

I think the US needs to follow Europes lead and have a standardized charging plug.

It’s cost me $12 to go 1200 miles in last 2 weeks. 2 supercharging sessions, 110v level 1 charging before last weekend I had a level 2 Tesla charger circuit installed 240v 60A

Very fun car to drive

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Based on things I am seeing in the powertrain industry, I think hydrogen fuel cells are going to be the answer. The problem with batteries is weight. Bigger battery is heavier, needing more battery power to tote the battery around.

Hydrogen is more energy dense, refuels faster, and the existing gasoline distribution network can be adapted more readily to it than to battery charging stations.

For small cars the battery/hydrogen tradeoff isn't really clear, but when it comes to commercial vehicles hauling heavy loads, there is no contest. Without a battery that can offer 10x the range in the same weight, an EV Semi is not viable.

Hydrogen is also extremely flammable, so that presents another hurdle as far as crash test certifications go.

The thing with charging infrastructure is that you have to stop thinking about it in terms of how you currently fuel your car.

Imagine if you started every single day with a full tank of gas. How often would you actually need to stop for gas?

For the vast majority of people, the answer will be just a couple times a year. For those people, a little extra planning to find a charger to complete a long drive may be a minor inconvenience they can live with.

Yes, some people will have peculiar mobility requirements where they frequently (more than 4-5 times a month) travel beyond the range of a single charge. An EV probably makes no sense for them.

Other people will have no place to regularly charge their vehicle. An EV also makes no sense for them.

But for many people, an EV should provide an overall superior ownership experience.

What about all the millions of people who live in apartments, where they don’t have garages, or the garage is a basement parking level?