So who's insurance is going to cover what ?

quote:

Originally posted by HayesGreener:
In my world dropping a loaded pistol while re-holstering in a sporting event is not an accident.

In shooting sports and everywhere else, it's lazy complacency. It cost a man his life. There's no place or excuse for it.

quote:

Originally posted by HayesGreener:
A whole generation of law enforcement officers survived carrying 3rd generation S&W pistols with magazine disconnects, which worked in officer's favor in a gun grab on multiple occasions ....

As I recall, even Massad Ayoob mentioned that some years ago. His information was that it worked to the benefit of officers in many incidents whereas he knew of no documented times that it somehow prevented an officer from being able to fight with a single shot pistol because the magazine was out.

I prefer that my guns not have the feature because I cannot imagine its ever being an issue for me one way or another, and don’t want the mechanical complication.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
So sad but preventable.

I teach people to look at their holster prior to holstering and that there is no race to the holster. There is a lot of resistance to the idea of looking at the holster while holstering. The Tactical Teds scoff at it because you “take your eyes off the threat”. Guess what? If it’s still a threat, I’m not holstering. The hoser crowd scoff because they are too “trained” and should be able to holster without looking.

Virtually all range incidents occur while holstering. And most all are preventable.

That is enlightening and extremely helpful. Makes more than perfect sense too. Thanks VERY much.

My girlfriend, now wife did a class at Sig Academy a few years ago and they taught us to put our thumps on the back of the slide and watch the gun all the way to the holster. The explanation the instructor have made sense. Seemed weird at the time has become my holstering method now.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I've got the gear, but never got around to trying USPSA, IDPA, or whatever. I think I'll just continue giving it a pass. Sounds like the original ostensible purpose of these competitions has been perverted by competitors willing to win at any cost, no matter how ill-advised.

I understand what you're saying but this seems similar to saying you'll never try scuba diving or sky diving because people have been hurt or killed. Fair enough, everyone has to decide what's right for themselves but I wouldn't let incidents like the one reported here stop you if you want to compete. I've "SO'd" kids under 15 and shooters in wheelchairs and all sorts in between and I'd still rather shoot a match than shoot holes in paper (that's just an example, I have no idea what sort of shooting you do).

And yes, they are all games no matter what anyone says. I don't see them as 'perverted' because they all started out that way. Yes, I know IDPA is supposed to be 'defensive' but it isn't; no need to beat that horse any further.

quote:

Originally posted by cyberiad:
I understand what you're saying but this seems similar to saying you'll never try scuba diving or sky diving because people have been hurt or killed.

Except in SCUBA diving and skydiving (I have skydived, btw) all I have to depend upon is that whomever filled my tanks or packed my chute did it right. The rest is on me. I don't have to worry about other participants' behavior wounding, maiming, or killing me.

"Hair" triggers on pistols being operated in combat-like scenarios? People removing of modifying safety features? *shudder*

No thanks.

I shot maybe 25-30 uspsa club matches and another 30 IDPA matches. The thought of someone disabling a safety device never crossed my mind, that seems like an insane rule violation along with a really bad idea.

I can see some whacko at the range with a bump fire trigger, which is why I try to stay away from such folks.

At a match, I am just dumbfounded. I have RO other guys and seen some pretty unsafe stuff. but in many ways this takes the cake as it was so clearly deliberate.

I am so sorry for all those involved.

Disabling safeties is a bad idea. Caveat of course for me is I disable every mag safety I own (Beretta 87, all 3rd gen Smith’s), I cant wrap my mind around that one. At least not as I intend to use the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by cyberiad:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I've got the gear, but never got around to trying USPSA, IDPA, or whatever. I think I'll just continue giving it a pass. Sounds like the original ostensible purpose of these competitions has been perverted by competitors willing to win at any cost, no matter how ill-advised.

I understand what you're saying but this seems similar to saying you'll never try scuba diving or sky diving because people have been hurt or killed. Fair enough, everyone has to decide what's right for themselves but I wouldn't let incidents like the one reported here stop you if you want to compete. I've "SO'd" kids under 15 and shooters in wheelchairs and all sorts in between and I'd still rather shoot a match than shoot holes in paper (that's just an example, I have no idea what sort of shooting you do).

And yes, they are all games no matter what anyone says. I don't see them as 'perverted' because they all started out that way. Yes, I know IDPA is supposed to be 'defensive' but it isn't; no need to beat that horse any further.

I was invited to, and participated in, a few of these matches. It was described to me as a "gun competition centered on real-world scenarios using cover and concealment while engaging targets".

What I encountered was a million rules about how to use said cover, while not being practical in the slightest. Not to mention getting penalized for reloading at the wrong time.

And I do believe mine was the only actual "defensive" pistol there...

So in reality, that was like attending an amateur stock track day in your showroom fresh Mustang, only to be surrounded by NASCAR race cars.

What was marketed, was not reality.

very sorry to hear this.

I've dropped loaded guns twice in my life. Both times it was S&W double action revolvers, and the hammer was down.

Honestly this is part of the reason I stick with DA revolvers. I know my limitations.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
The rest is on me. I don't have to worry about other participants' behavior wounding, maiming, or killing me.

Accusing someone of being afraid of everything (i.e., being cowardly) because they’re afraid of or avoid certain specific things is diseased thinking (a logical fallacy).

Whether we can control what happens to us is one of the most common reasons for deciding if a risk is something we want to run. There are nevertheless countless things in life that can be dangerous to us and which we trust to the care and competence of others; driving on the highways is probably the most common. When I’m driving, there are literally countless people whom I wouldn’t trust to handle a loaded gun in my presence who are in control of motor vehicles that come almost within touching distance and within milliseconds of killing or maiming me. But an inescapable aspect of daily life are all the risk/reward balances.

I cannot live my life without traveling the highways. If I were trying out for Delta Force and realized that some of the guns in use by the other candidates were not drop safe I would accept the hazard as something much less than what I would be facing if accepted into the unit. On the other hand there would be much less reason for me to accept the risks of unintentional discharges for the purposes of playing a game. The pleasure and satisfaction of participating in a competition might be enough for me to accept the very minor risks involved, but my decision not to says absolutely nothing about my courage to face other, far greater risks.

If someone recognizes all that and yet still improperly equates and generalizes the avoidance of one danger with the avoidance of one that’s completely different, then he is dishonest. If he doesn’t recognize that due to poor reasoning ability, then he owes it to himself to learn more about logical thinking. The below link discusses several logical fallacies that everyone should be familiar with.

https://thebestschools.org/mag...ical-fallacies-know/

I have a friend who was shot at a match. I know another guy who shot himself at a match. Sadly accidents happen, but just like every other dangerous thing we do in our lives, you need to eliminate all the added threats you can. Being stupid isn't that.

I've seen people miss their holster and drop their gun. Just simple complacency, "I've done this a million times and I'm just too cool for the need to even look." Lots of type A's and lots of big egos in shooting sports. Usually they just end up looking stupid and being DQ'd from the match, this time was far worse. No excuse for added stupid.

Seems to me like mostly a tragic accident. I agree, no hurry to reholster, slow & deliberate.


In most any walk or occupation, those ‘seemingly’ well experienced can have lapses too. That’s a reason to take these lessons(tragic accidents) to heart.

An article on the incident.

https://gatdaily.com/uspsa-range-officer-shot/

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
My condolences to the RO's friends and family

quote:

Originally posted by heavyd:
My guess is the gun was modified to have a hair trigger. Most I shot USPSA with did.

Depending upon what you mean by "hair trigger," ISTM that should be disallowed as unsafe.

quote:

Originally posted by ace73:
Sorry to hear this too.
I have a CZ75B set up for IDPA with the firing pin block removed.....might reconsider.

Why in God's name would you do that? Would you carry a firearm as a SD pistol that way?

Isn't the point of USPSA, IDPA, and IPSC to be competition that roughly mimics real life defensive pistol use?

I'm going to guess that you don't know me and that I purchased the slide that way. It did come with the block, which I plan to install.
I did not remove it.

I would recommend that if you intend to disable a safety for whatever reason, you purchase a multi-million dollar Personal Umbrella Policy first. There's really very little defense against an assertion of negligence under that circumstance. You'll pay.

The CZ comes with, and without the firing pin block. Given that it DOES come from the factory without the block, it's a bit circular to suggest that one who removes that firing pin block is somehow taking the pistol to level of risk that the factory never intended.

Moreover, swapping uppers, or changing to a different action type, calls for the removal or addition of certain parts; the fact remains that the same basic model comes with, and without.

Competition pistols often have lighter triggers and numerous features not normally found in a carry handgun. This does not make them wrong.

quote:

Competition pistols often have lighter triggers and numerous features not normally found in a carry handgun. This does not make them wrong.

Seems like it did at least once last Saturday.

In 50 years carrying daily I have had firearms drop from holsters in physical confrontations and a Galco shoulder holster. My PPK that I have carried since 1970 has fallen twice, both times landing on the hammer. Not once has it fired.
Same with my Mod 39 or my S&W revolvers.


I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would carry any rifle, pistol or shotgun in such manner as it could go off when dropped.

To depend upon holsters if a fools game! Look at most of them, they are far from failure to retain the handgun.

WHY take the chance???

My greatest fear as a LEO was some creep taking my hand gun out of the holster while in was in a confrontation and using it on me or someone else.

I avoided that possibility, but that would involve a complete new discussion.

Thanks for reading and feel free to discuss.