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I read about this on my morning newsfeed. So sad and my condolences to all involved. What really sickened me was that the source of the article (Newsweek) chose to conflate this with stories of mass shootings. https://www.newsweek.com/man-k...ork-gun-club-1545929 Not that the bias of the MSM is really news, but it does a great disservice to the victim and his family. Trump was 100% correct when he labeled the MSM as the enemy. Adios, Pizza Bob NRA Benefactor Member | |||
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Member |
Can't speculate what happened without the facts. But, in general terms: 1. NEVER DISABLE FACTORY SAFETY DEVICE(S), I don't care what kind of four letter competition you are involved in. And I damn sure want nothing to do with any MODERN pistol that does not have a firing pin or striker block. We have seen enough unintentional discharges and malfunctions over the past 50 years to know better. 2. Drawing and re-holstering a pistol safely and effectively requires many hundreds of repetitions for it to become a non-declaratory memory. Single action pistols require additional attention to manipulate the safety at the right point in the draw or re-holstering process. If you change holster designs, you need to start the learning process over. Whether you glance at the holster or not when re-holstering is far less important than avoiding pointing the pistol at yourself or others, or dropping your gun during the process. There is no speed requirement to re-holster, in fact we should be training people to hesitate and re-holster reluctantly, from a ready position. My observations is that holster management is not emphasized enough in training. There is good reason why we teach the four step draw and re-holster in reverse. I see requalification students who were not trained properly in holster management on a regular basis with really bad habits and they sometimes scare the crap out of me. 3. RSO's must be constantly vigilant. NEVER assume that someone with a CCW, or who claims to be experienced, or even who has competed, knows what they are doing until they have demonstrated safe protocols. That included armed professionals. There are a lot of bad safety habits out there. We should be doing dry fire holster drills as a safety check before any training or competition. I feel terrible for everyone involved in this tragedy. Many lives were changed or ruined in an instant over something stupid in what should have been a safe and fun shooting event. Every time something like this happens we say we should tighten safety protocols but then it repeats. Investigation will find a series of safety gaps that led to this negligent discharge. I hope we get the details and all of us can learn from it. CMSGT USAF (Retired) Chief of Police (Retired) | |||
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| Member |
It's a very unfortunate accident. But even pistols drop safes do fail, whether it be due to worn springs, worn sears, or dropped just right. It's an ultra rare event and very unfortunate and why it's an accident. But to speculate how or why it happened, is simply speculation. | |||
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| Member |
I respectfully disagree. In my world dropping a loaded pistol while re-holstering in a sporting event is not an accident. CMSGT USAF (Retired) Chief of Police (Retired) | |||
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| 7.62mm Crusader |
You brought it up and I believe what you say. I had just last week, watched a couple more shooting videos where the shooter definately looks into his holster while seating his weapon. I sure took notice of that. | |||
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Nullus Anxietas |
Agreed. That would be negligence. Who lets go of the grip before they feel the handgun seated in the holster? A couple of members have suggested some competitors tune their pistols to (what I would regard as) unsafe levels, while another has admitted to purposely disabling a safety device. Do these people also "tune" their holsters to the point that they don't even adequately retain a firearm? I don't know about the rest of y'all, but my holsters all require at least a slight nudge to fully-seat the firearm--even the competition holster for my G34. I've got the gear, but never got around to trying USPSA, IDPA, or whatever. I think I'll just continue giving it a pass. Sounds like the original ostensible purpose of these competitions has been perverted by competitors willing to win at any cost, no matter how ill-advised. "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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| Lead slingin' Parrot Head  |
My thoughts, prayers, and condolences to the family and friends of the deceased, as well as his fellow competitors and the club. The best we can hope for at this point is to learn from this tragedy and hopefully find reasonabe ways to reduce the chances of it happening again. Will be watching for updates on the circumstances surrounding this tragedy.
I was just looking at several new guns last week, including a couple CZ Shadow Orange model variants. It doesn't surprise me that owners would modify their competition or range guns to improve performance, even if it means disabling a safety feature...but, it never occurred to me that a manufacturer would sell a gun without a commonly accepted designed safety feature. I'll damned sure keep that in mind when considering any new gun purchases in the future, as well as just handling/ shooting any gun unfamiliar to me. Thanks for the heads up! | |||
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| Member |
Very sad to hear this news. Positive thoughts to all involved. We had a couple of deaths at the range I worked at in the 90's, but they were not accidents. They were suicides. Made a mess on the carpet. Once had a cop that was pointing his gun towards the pro shop. Thought the gun was empty and pulled the trigger. The wall caught the round and the glass was bullet proof so no injuries. I wasn't working that day but I guess the crew that was chewed his ass but good. ___________________________________Sigforum - port in the fake news storm.____________Be kind to the Homeless. A lot of us are one bad decision away from there. | |||
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Member |
How many stories start off with that phrase and end in tragedy. One of the problems is "thinking it's empty" when you should always act like you "think it's loaded" until you verify that it is not loaded. ---------------------------------- "These things you say we will have, we already have." "That's true. I ain't promising you nothing extra." | |||
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| Member |
This is so very true. ___________________________________Sigforum - port in the fake news storm.____________Be kind to the Homeless. A lot of us are one bad decision away from there. | |||
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| Lead slingin' Parrot Head |
Years ago I went on a camping trip with a group of co-workers/ friends in a remote camp site in the mountains. Several in my group, especially one particular girl, were friendly and hospitable and when they noticed another group of 3 campers they invited them back to our camp site and camp fire, and there was alcohol being consumed. I had one or two, but was in no way under the influence. It turned out that the two male campers were young enlisted soldiers from the local Army base, and the young girl was one of their girlfriends. The soldiers claimed to have gone through sniper school. I was carrying a S&W 629 and when they saw it they asked about it. Normally I don't hand firearms to strangers, but I have a soft spot for military people and I figured if anyone knew about proper safe gun handling it would be a soldier, and especially ones who had been through a sniper school. I unloaded the revolver and handed it over to one of the soldiers. He immediately closed the cylinder, gave the gun a quick look over, and then pointed it directly at his fellow soldier friend and pulled the trigger before I could object. It was the loudest "click" of my life, but apparently they didn't hear it because they were both laughing over what just happened. I took the gun back, reloaded it, placed it back in its holster, and made a mental note to never again assume that anyone who supposedly went through firearms training would simply follow that training without fail. I'm even more careful about who I hand a gun to, whether it is unloaded or not, now. ETA: edited to include a detail from an edited accidental double post, now delted.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Modern Day Savage, | |||
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| Member |
Wow. I would have shit if I witnessed that. ___________________________________Sigforum - port in the fake news storm.____________Be kind to the Homeless. A lot of us are one bad decision away from there. | |||
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| Nullus Anxietas |
I have one not unlike that. Was river canoeing with my brother and our girlfriends. We're sitting around the campfire and the guy that runs the place wanders down, so we invite him to join us. There was much alcohol and so-on consumed. At one point he invited us up to see his place, so we went. He had a lever-action rifle hanging over the mantle. I wandered over, looked at it, and remarked on it. He walks over, takes it down, and hands it to me. Surprised the hell out of me, being as I'm inclined not to mix alcohol and firearms. I automatically, before doing anything else, rack it open. Out pops a round  Leaving the action open, I look at the guy and say "Perhaps you should take this back." He takes it back and mumbles something about "Of course it's loaded." Second mistake on my part: I look away from him. Next thing I know he catches me by surprise by handing me the thing again. And, again, despite the fact it's in my mind "Surely he unloaded it," I just automatically rack it open, and, again, a live round pops out  I finally persuaded him to put the damn thing back up over the mantle and got us the hell out of there as soon as possible without giving offense. "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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| Member |
Sorry for the doble, but this IS the deal. So sorry. | |||
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Keeping the economy moving since 1964 |
They have released the name of the man killed. Article below. https://www.democratandchronic...dtfXCOZsksPv7z9ulilQ ----------------------- You can't fall off the floor. | |||
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| Member |
One of my friends uses one of those minimal competition only holster. I friggin hate it. The retention is marginally effective. I wonder if he was using one of these comp type holsters. | |||
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| Member |
How about a magazine disconnect safety? More of a European thing, most in the US don't have much use for a pistol that's disabled by removing the magazine, and tend to disable them. Where does one draw the line? Even the vaunted Colonel Cooper was in favor of disabling the grip safety on the 1911, nd when Wilson developed their enhanced EDCx9, they did away with the grip safety.
No, I said mine comes that way out of the box, which is why it meets the standard for production category. It's hard to be effective with a true drop safe firearm, once it's wrapped in ten inches of bubble wrap and sealed with packing tape. The damn thing just wont' fit in the holster. | |||
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| Nullus Anxietas |
Wasn't talking about you. There are others commenting in this thread, you know  "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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| Member |
I stand by what I said, do not disable factory safety devices. If you don't like a safety feature on a particular firearm, pick a different platform. A whole generation of law enforcement officers survived carrying 3rd generation S&W pistols with magazine disconnects, which worked in officer's favor in a gun grab on multiple occasions, so that's a bad example. I admire Cooper but don't care what he said about grip safeties, by today's standards disabling safety features is negligent. J.H. Fitzgerald also favored cutting the front out of the trigger guard of double action revolvers and gun guys like Charles Askins favored the design, but it did not make it right. You tinker with safety devices at your own peril, and at the peril of those around you. CMSGT USAF (Retired) Chief of Police (Retired) | |||
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| His diet consists of black coffee, and sarcasm.  |
Missing the holster and dropping the gun on the floor and "experienced shooter" don't add up. | |||
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