I have no clue on the actual details on this and lets hope we can get them to see what happens. But anyone and I mean that, who uses a gun in competition that is not drop safe is a problem for all of us. I include in that all the idiots who on this site have said they are not getting their 320 fixed, and a ton of other idiots who actively promote triggers that are not safe. Normally as a RSO the big issue for me is someone stuffing their glock back in the holster with some piece of clothing in the way. But dropping it is always a meaningful issue. I'm normally ready for the issue of dropping it and trying to grab it, but a fully it drops and fires I would say is a real issue.

How the hell did he miss the holster while reholstering?

And why wasn't his thumb on the hammer as he reholstered?

Some of the RSO at my local range wear soft armor under their orange safety vests.

Very sorry to hear. Very tragic. Prayers sent.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by ace73:
Sorry to hear this too.
I have a CZ75B set up for IDPA with the firing pin block removed.....might reconsider.

Why in God's name would you do that? Would you carry a firearm as a SD pistol that way?

Guns w/o a firing pin block are said to have smoother triggers or at least the potential to make better triggers, since there are fewer moving parts. No firing pin block is one of the selling points of pre-B CZ 75s and Shadow 2s.

Many Colt 1911 fans prefer Series 70 to Series 80 Colts, b/c Series 80 added the firing pin block.

quote:

Originally posted by chbibc:
I've been a member at the Genesee Conservation League here for years. Saturday morning there was an accidental discharge at the indoor range resulting in the death of a range officer.

It was a monthly USPSA match. From what I have heard the RO told the shooter to make ready, shooter went to holster the firearm, missed the holster, handgun dropped to the floor. Gun discharged, round hit the RO in heart and lung, he died instantly. Participant was an experienced shooter and is understandably devastated. Sheriff's office is investigating, all ranges closed until Thursday.

Gun was a CZ 75B. Unknown if it was modified in any way.

Please pray for all involved.

I have shot there in several USPSA matches before I moved from the area. So sad to hear of this.

First, my sympathies & condolences to all of those people that have been and will be affected by this incident. It could be quite bad for the Club also.
I have shot both fair weather outdoor USPSA and indoor winter USPSA events at GCL.
A tragedy for the RO & family, the competitor & family, the other competitor's & family's, and the Club.
Just a damn shame...

quote:

Some of the RSO at my local range wear soft armor under their orange safety vests.

I always wear soft armor when being an RSO. but its just a minor safety feature as there are so many other places a bullet can kill you.

What a tragic shame.

I too would like to hear more detail if possible - I do a lot of IPSC (USPSA) RO'ing and instructing and always try to slow down the holstering process and make it deliberate and conscious.
As I tell them "the timer starts running after the beep", before that, you are to chill and slow down".

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
So sad but preventable.

I teach people to look at their holster prior to holstering and that there is no race to the holster. There is a lot of resistance to the idea of looking at the holster while holstering. The Tactical Teds scoff at it because you “take your eyes off the threat”. Guess what? If it’s still a threat, I’m not holstering. The hoser crowd scoff because they are too “trained” and should be able to holster without looking.

Virtually all range incidents occur while holstering. And most all are preventable.

I would not argue. I thought about it as reading your post, and what little formal training I've had was mostly as you describe. I believe my initial shoot house training from Pete Peterson (RIP) was probably the only instructor I can remember who taught to not take your eyes off the threat. I think that was 2000 time frame.

A lot of the LEO training that I and others took it was a down right travesty if you had to look at your holster while re-holstering you handgun. The last training classes and refreshers now are instructing if you need to take a second to look at your holster so you can do it safely do it!!!

What a horrible tragedy.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

Why in God's name would you do that? Would you carry a firearm as a SD pistol that way?

Isn't the point of USPSA, IDPA, and IPSC to be competition that roughly mimics real life defensive pistol use?

My CZ Custom Shadow Tac II has no firing pin block. USPSA rules require that the stage starts with the hammer down. If the stage calls for a chambered round, given that my pistol doesn't feature a decocker, the trigger is pressed, while I lower the hammer all the way down.

That puts it resting on the firing pin. The pistol comes this way. It's legal as a production pistol, so long as it's shot with 10 rounds. It has a relatively light, smooth double action pull, nice single action pull, and a very short reset.

I have single action only CZ's with very light triggers, and nothing to prevent striking the hammer if dropped. That's s received over the counter; nothing I did. Many 1911 afficianados prefer the trigger on earlier 1911's, because what's holding the firing pin back is nothing more than a spring, and there is less to get in the way of the trigger press.

The CZ is an iron curtain design from a cold war era, and still has a strong following.

I can't imagine why one wouldn't look at the holster when returning the weapon to the holster. There may be some use for speed in drawing from the holster; there is no value in hastening the return; the one exception might be securing the pistol while handcuffing or otherwise tied up, but if the threat is that great, it may be wiser to remain unholstered. At aa range or a competition, there are no points gained by reholstering with speed.

In Iai-do, which involves drawing sword and making a cut, a pause, and then a return to the saya or scabbard, the process of returning the sword is painfully slow and deliberate. It does not involve looking, but there's a big difference in the purpose and intent, and the sword won't discharge, even if dropped. I tend to reholster the same way, but looking; slowly.

Especially if one has just received "load and make ready:" that's the time to ensure that when returning the chambered pistol to the holster, the holster is clear, the pistol is situated where desired, and there's nothing to impede the upcoming draw. It's the time to slow down. Especially true of those using high-speed, low-draw skeletonized fast-draaw unlimited holsters, where there's little more than a peg to catch the muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
If the stage calls for a chambered round, given that my pistol doesn't feature a decocker, the trigger is pressed, while I lower the hammer all the way down.

That puts it resting on the firing pin. The pistol comes this way.

The crazy—yes, crazy—shit—yes, shit—one learns here.

If guns that aren’t drop safe in this day and age are commonly used in competitions, words fail me, other than to wonder which of the gun gods has kept me away from such activities even though I didn’t know why.

When we constantly hear of people getting the vapors because they were swept by an almost certainly unloaded firearm at a gun store and yet no one objects to being around unsafe loaded guns being routinely handled in and out of holsters, I am obviously missing something.

And in response to the inevitable, “Something like that almost never happens and all it takes is for everyone to follow safe gun-handling practices,” save it for the clueless.

Okay, cue the outrage ....

quote:

Originally posted by ace73:
I have a CZ75B set up for IDPA with the firing pin block removed.....might reconsider.

FWIW, removing a firing pin block is an illegal modification. Local club matches may not catch it, but I've seen it checked at state-level matches during equipment inspection.

From the rulebook:

quote:

8.1.8 Non-IDPA-Legal Features and Modifications for All Divisions
The following features and modifications are not allowed in any division unless otherwise specifically allowed in the
rulebook.
...
E. Disconnecting or disabling of any safety device including (but not limited to): manual safeties, grip safeties, firing pin, striker, and hammer blocking safeties, 1911 series 80 firing pin safeties, 1911 Swartz safeties. 1911 series 80 frames may be used with series 70 slides or vice versa. Revolver actions may not be modified so that the hammer can fall when the cylinder is open.

Mornin'.

At this time I've relayed all I've heard. When I have the investigation results I will post them.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

If guns that aren’t drop safe in this day and age are commonly used in competitions, words fail me, other than to wonder which of the gun gods has kept me away from such activities even though I didn’t know why.

When we constantly hear of people getting the vapors because they were swept by an almost certainly unloaded firearm at a gun store and yet no one objects to being around unsafe loaded guns being routinely handled in and out of holsters, I am obviously missing something.

Okay, cue the outrage ....

Have you ever handled a 1911? One that isn't an 80 series, one that doesn't have a schwartz safety?

What's drop safe about that? A favorite carry weapon for a larage share of the pistol carrying population?

That's right: nothing. Still a popular choice today.

quote:

Originally posted by motorheadjohn:

FWIW, removing a firing pin block is an illegal modification. Local club matches may not catch it, but I've seen it checked at state-level matches during equipment inspection.

Cannot be removed, yes. Can be purchased without, as a production firearm, yes. Can be shot without, sa purchased, as production firearm, yes.

Note that you cited the rule which stipulates the safety cannot be deactivated or removed...but that one can still shoot a firearm without, or in the csae of the 1911, swap a slide to one that doesn't incorporate the safety (eg, put a 70 series slide on an 80 series pistol). In other words, the rule you quoted prohibits altering the pistol, for production category, but doesn't prevent carrying or shooting a pistol that came without the safet or block, or combining production components which don't include the block.

Using a modified pistol in other than produciton, however, is legal, depending on the category.

I was wondering if it would be necessary to point out the difference in hazards to bystanders between a gun that might discharge if dropped muzzle first onto a surface versus one that might discharge if dropped onto its hammer with muzzle up.

I guess it was.

But even if the dangers of both possibilities were the same, and of course they're not, I believe it was in about kindergarten that someone first pointed out to me that two wrongs don't make a right.

Don’t worry sigfreund, you aren’t alone. My work schedule has kept me from participating in shooting competitions, but from now on it will be by choice as well. I don’t like being around too many people handling firearms, but it never really occurred to me that non drop safe firearms were so common in gun games.

quote:

My CZ Custom Shadow Tac II has no firing pin block. USPSA rules require that the stage starts with the hammer down. If the stage calls for a chambered round, given that my pistol doesn't feature a decocker, the trigger is pressed, while I lower the hammer all the way down.

The area I bolded, does not apply to single action pistols, which are allowed to have a round chambered, hammer back and safety engaged. (8.1.2.1.)

Just a point of clarification for those who do not shoot USPSA.

Sorry to hear about the death of the R.O.

My guess is also either the passive fp block was removed for a lighter trigger or the trigger was touched while the pistol was falling. I would be surprised to learn that an intact 75b would impact discharge since the fp is designed expressly to prevent such a malady.

It is my understanding that one of the primary reasons the German government mandated a trigger mod for the Walther P-5 before ultimately replacing it was an incident with a discharge due to a dropped weapon. That also resulted in a death.

They had tested it incessantly, so they tested again and had a hard time duplicating the AD. Supposedly, it will not discharge when dropped to strike at anything other than just the right, certain angle. The resulting fix made the DA pull pretty crappy (I have one, it is crappy) and I think that cinched it for replacement.